The following is a transcription of this episode. It has been edited for clarity.
Intro: Did any of your friendships change once one of you became a mom? If so, now that the kids are getting older, are we working our way back to some of the friendships we had in our younger years? Today on the More Beautiful podcast, I chat with one of my dearest pals, Lisa Cavallari, about our friendship: how it’s evolved over the years, and where it’s landing in midlife. We also talk about how women can support one another even when their life paths diverge, what we can learn from one another’s experiences, and why it may actually be easier than we think to make friends as we get older. Welcome to More Beautiful, the podcast for women rewriting the midlife playbook. I’m Maryann LoRusso, and I invite you to join me and a guest each week as we strive for a life that’s more adventurous, more fulfilling, and more beautiful than ever before.
Maryann: Welcome back to the More Beautiful podcast. Today I’m here with my good friend Lisa Cavallari, whom I’ve known and adored for years, and we’re going to talk about something that hopefully you’re going to find as interesting as we do. We’re going to talk about female friendships, primarily friendships between women who became moms and women who didn’t, how those friendships changed through the years, and where they’re landing now that we’re in midlife. Hey, Lisa.
Lisa: Hi, Maryann.
Maryann: Thanks for being here.
Lisa: Oh, thank you so much for inviting me to be a part of this.
Maryann: I’m really excited about our conversation, because it’s one that I end up having with a lot of friends. And we talk about how before motherhood, friendships tend to be based on common interests, activities, priorities, and not, you know, merely being moms or not being moms. Lisa, do you think it was easier back then to make friends, before any of your friends had kids?
Lisa: Well, if I recall correctly, Maryann, it was proximity that actually first introduced us, right, in the dorm in freshman year of college. So maybe I don’t mean to challenge you on your assumed shared interest part, but sometimes it can be rather serendipitous. The proximity to how we were acquainted with one another doesn’t necessarily change. So I would think that, whereas the forced nature of having children bonds you to certain moms who are in your kids’ classes, and you have shared children who participate in certain activities, what’s been interesting to see in my friends as they develop as parents is just this, you know, beautiful flowering of my friends, having children and what direction their lives have taken. I don’t think it’s different than those like me—I’m single, and I’m childless—but it’s still a beautiful thing to behold. But to your point of common interest, there are definite points in my life where my friends who have so many competing interests and families to raise have been a little bit farther from me than they were before parenthood.
Maryann: Right, right. Well, maybe I didn’t mean how do you meet people, but how do you sustain friendships, right? Because obviously, you need to be close to someone or meet them somewhere to become friends. But in terms of just forging that friendship, you know, in college we met on campus, but we had lunch, there were common events that we attended and bonded over. So when a woman becomes a mom, that changes drastically, right, because just speaking for myself, I can say that having kids definitely affected my friendships. After I had a baby and in the early years of motherhood, I felt so overwhelmed. I was tired. I was crying half the time, I probably had a touch of postpartum. I remember one of my close friends here in San Francisco had called me one day while I was nursing my son, and she asked me if I wanted to go to the movies. And I remember getting so agitated with her because here I was, my husband was on a business trip, I had this baby in my lap. All I wanted her to do for me was come over and take the baby out of my hands, and she’s asking me if I wanted to go to the movies. So I remember I felt at that point, like, I can’t do this. Like, I just have to find women who I can bond with, at least for now—women who understand what I’m going through. And at the same time, I felt guilty for not being a good friend to her. I felt bad that I was pushing her away and didn’t have time for her.
Lisa: I don’t think you should’ve felt bad. I think with that kind of situation, I’m guessing to the extent that you are still friends with this person, for example—
Maryann: Yes, I am.
Lisa: Yeah, as a single person. I don’t know what mothers go through. However, I will say that I’m not sure that I would have invited you…I would have approached that differently. I guess there is a little bit of self awareness for the people involved to be like, OK, well, Maryann’s been at home with a small newborn and her husband travels for work, like, maybe she’d just like some company, or she wouldn’t mind if I stopped by and we just shared a cup of tea or whatever that is. I think there are ways of sort of bridging that gap without…I think it’s kind that your friend was trying to get you out of the house or, you know, just like do something nice. But I think it takes understanding on both sides of the situation to know that it’s what you have time for, and I don’t think you should feel guilty at all. I’m sure you have friendships in your life that you know you can pick up wherever it is that you left off, and others that are friends of yours that try really hard at the communication and are really great about keeping in touch. And then there are probably others that you don’t hear from all that often, but you know you can pick up the phone and call. So all of those factors, I feel like, also come into play. And as a single woman, I can tell you, I was very conscientious of my friends who had children, in the sense of, I could only imagine what kind of competing priorities they had that I didn’t have to deal with. So I tried not to let that…If there was any non communication, I tried not to take that personally. You and I have had discussions about how we’re like the world’s most two sensitive people in the world, you know, but…
Maryann: Absolutely. And I was gonna say that you were always so thoughtful and considerate about my lifestyle changes and your other friends who had kids, what they were going through. Not to imply that my friend who asked me to go to the movies was not being sensitive or thoughtful, but I think, like you mentioned, it’s just you don’t understand, because you’re not going through it. But I think it takes communication. And my friend and I actually had this conversation years later, we talked about it, because each of us thought the other was mad at the time. And we stopped talking for a couple of years.
Lisa: Oh my gosh, wow.
Maryann: And that was when we were younger, obviously. And I think with time comes maturity, and, you know, acceptance, so I’m not really sure it would have happened later. I don’t know, interesting question.
Lisa: It is, and the people involved, right, are all different, so we can only speak to our experiences. We don’t know what other people are going through. I have to say that as a single woman, the shoulder I could be for women who were married and going through parenting for the first time, I was sort of the non judgmental…I can’t tell you how many new moms who were friends of mine confided in me like I was some sort of confessional that they only breastfed for insert X number of weeks as if I would understand anything about that, right? So there are some silver linings to be able to be that type of sounding board for someone. And you mentioned earlier postpartum. You know, for a single person like me, there’s no judgement when one of my friends comes and says to me, as they had in the past, you know, I’m having a really hard time with this transition. And I was just happy to be able to listen. I mean, my gosh, your body must be going through all these changes that I’ve never experienced, but again, I’m just like this non judgmental, hopefully open person, that somebody, if they need to talk, can turn to.
Maryann: Yeah, when you mentioned that to me earlier that you were this objective sounding board, I had never thought of that before, honestly. And it makes sense, right? Because you will listen, you won’t judge, and I think women with kids can think about that now and maybe look at their friends who don’t have kids as being that sounding board. I wish I had thought of that at the time. Maybe it just happened naturally with you, I didn’t have to think about it, you know?
Lisa: It does happen naturally, right? It’s all the comfort level, and then of course, the level of trust. And then every person is different in terms of sharing what they’re going through. But I have to say if there’s one thing that I think is remarkably different, just as an outside observer from our mom’s generations, it’s that openness and willingness to talk about things that, before, people just really didn’t talk about. I mean, mental health, domestic abuse, I mean, I can just think of all these really heavy topics that women went through by themselves or alone with so much shame before. And now I’m cautiously optimistic that the society that we’re in—and at least the sisterhood that we all hope to be for one another—really is able to bridge that gap and make people feel more comfortable with communicating that.
Maryann: I agree 100%. I think things are changing, and it’s great. One thing I want to say about being in the early throes of motherhood is that at least for me, I felt like I couldn’t go anywhere anymore easily. You know? When you have a newborn, even a young child at home, with you goes the diaper bag, the stroller, the paraphernalia, the bottles, whatever you’re lugging around. You are no longer your own unit, you know, this very mobile unit, and you feel really weighed down. And for me, I felt like I was weighing myself down, my friends down. I couldn’t just run out the door and get coffee with someone, there was this whole regimen involved, you know? And it was difficult, and I wish I had verbalized that more to my friends, instead of just saying no.
Lisa: That’s interesting. Do you feel like it was an additional label and additional title that you had to take on? Or do you think that has changed over time, like you have felt the pressure to say yes, and to go out and to be with people and do things, but…
Maryann: Oh, absolutely. And we’re going to talk about midlife soon, but that’s one of the beauties of midlife, I think. You can say no. I’ve trained myself to say no to numerous things. Not just going out to the movies, to many, many things, right? Because we’re all busy, and we need to prioritize. Absolutely.
Lisa: No is my mom’s favorite word, so it’s encouraging to hear that. [Laughs]
Maryann: Oh, I love your mom. Oh, that’s great. [Laughs] Your mom and Oprah.
Lisa: It’s every mom’s favorite word, right? No?
Maryann: Absolutely. So tell me, Lisa, as a single person, what were you feeling on your end? I mean, besides being this beacon of light and encouragement to all your friends who were breastfeeding and whatnot.
Lisa: It was a little bit of an adjustment. You know, honestly, those things were…and don’t get me wrong, everybody has sort of a different take and situation and place that they’re in. I always welcomed the opportunity to meet somebody and potentially be a mother myself. It just didn’t happen that way. And so I want to make it clear that I have four godchildren, and love children.
Maryann: And they are so lucky, because you pamper them. [Laughs]
Lisa: Oh, yeah. [Laughs] But you know, so to set the stage. So there was a little bit of like, my feeling, personally, that I wasn’t keeping up. Like, it’s not a contest, but I was kind of falling behind. And of course, I recognized with time that it wasn’t. I’m not falling behind, I’m just on a different path. As we all know, there are many paths to parenthood. So I think I had to mentally adjust for that. And then I compare it a little bit…I don’t usually talk about how many weddings I’ve actually been in and how many times I’ve been a bridesmaid, but I do compare it to the time when…you know, you lose your friend, when you’re a bridesmaid, after they get married, right? It’s like a very intense amount of time, and people have different pressures with the wedding and starting their new life.
Maryann: Yeah, that’s a whole other podcast episode.
Lisa: It is, right? It is. And it’s just more elongated, right? So I did compare it a little bit to that in the sense that the friend, our friendship, will come around. I mean, I always thought it would come back to the two of us. Not us specifically, but whoever a friend was that I had perhaps not been in as close contact with because they were raising young children, or maybe they even moved away or took on a new job. In addition to all these responsibilities inside the home, there are also pressures outside the home. So I wanted to be respectful and yet also a supportive friend, but I’m sure in the end that there was a distance right there, there was just that natural time of like, hey, I’m not going to be able to pick up the phone. And this is the changing dynamic I’m sure that you’ve experienced. Maryann, when we were younger, we could talk on the phone for hours, right? I mean, this is all before like the iPhone and the Internet and whatnot. That was like a pastime or an activity people really enjoyed. Things are completely different now in terms of the way that we communicate with one another in general. So, I’d say that it was an adjustment on my side in different ways. But I guess I remained hopeful that at a certain point in time, the friendship would resurrect, and probably live on in a different way than before.
Maryann: It’s so funny you mentioned the phone because, yeah, you’re right. I mean, phone calls were cut short a lot when I was a mom of young kids. Somebody would be screaming in the background inevitably or smearing paint on the walls or whatever. And I am having longer phone conversations these days. I find that it’s kind of back to the way it was, for me. Even though I’m incredibly busy, I find myself being able to more easily lose myself in a phone conversation, which I love.
Lisa: That is a true gift. I would agree with that assessment wholeheartedly. Now, do you think that COVID has contributed to this? Is this a silver lining of a global pandemic?
Maryann: Good question. Probably. It probably has, yeah.
Lisa: I think I think it absolutely has. I’m not sure what you found the global pandemic to be like, but it has really caused me to…In fact, I have two recurring phone calls now with girlfriends from college who are both married. There are three of us in one phone call and three of us in another, and it’s high school friends in one phone call and college friends in the other. And I am the only childless single woman with the high school phone call. In the college phone call, my two friends are married and one of them has children and one of them does not. And I brought up this podcast, actually, to my friends in that I speak with him from high school every week. And they had some really interesting insights.
Maryann: Oh, I want to hear.
Lisa: Yeah. One of them told me…And they’re both brilliant, I love them to pieces. And so I’ve known them obviously for decades, and I was at their weddings, and they’re just phenomenal people. They work outside of the home and they’ve raised three kids each. They thought that it was really interesting that they described me as being that person who took the lead to keep them engaged, and how much they valued just somebody picking up that baton and getting that scheduled. And for me, that was really heartening to hear, because you don’t like to think that you’re forcing your friendship on anybody, you know? Or just being too aggressive. I want to be respectful of people and their time and what they choose to do. And it was just really enlightening and very heartening to hear that my high school friends had said that they appreciated that leadership, the energy, that it brought to their lives. One of my friends said how much she looks forward to it and how much she didn’t realize that she needed this kind of dialogue between women of her age, her cohort, you know, people who’ve known her for a really long time.
Maryann: Well, that’s a testament to the type of friend you are. That’s amazing. And I agree wholeheartedly.
Lisa: Oh, but I don’t think it’s unique specifically to me. I mean, what do you think, in the time of COVID, are some of those reconnections that you’ve been able to make? Would you describe that in the same way? Maybe you were pleasantly surprised with those connections or some of those conversations that you had.
Maryann: Yeah, I mean, I definitely reconnected with people I hadn’t spoken to for a while. And I felt like everybody in general was more open to talking and Zooming, not to mention walking. I walked with so many people. And back to the kids thing for a second, my daughter who was a teenager during COVID, she was walking with her friends, and I was walking with my friends. And we kind of did it in a group.
Lisa: Oh, that’s interesting.
Maryann: So, the kids were no longer the kids that we had to entertain, they were now part of the group.
Lisa: Along for the ride. Yeah, part of the conversation.
Maryann: Yeah, they were part of the ladies group thing, you know, and it was really cool to watch that happen. But no, I would agree with your friend that I feel like I do appreciate friends who have made an effort all these years to keep up with friendships, because it’s hard. It really is hard. And both of you can’t be holding the baton at all given times, right?
Lisa: That’s absolutely right.
Maryann: And I think you’re right, like the wisdom to know when the other person needs you to kind of make more effort, because they’re going through something, is so important. So I agree.
Lisa: It is, and that regular cadence can really open up a whole new dynamic to conversations and what direction those conversations go. I just find it really enlightening. And we haven’t talked geography, but I have to say that I think proximity does make a difference. And sometimes it just requires extra effort. All the people I’ve mentioned are in all different time zones. So, it can be a real challenge to coordinate something like that. But it can also be really rewarding. Maryann, I wish we could go for a walk every week, but unfortunately, we’re not in the same city.
Maryann: Well, I’m going to come to Seattle soon. So I did want to talk about the corporate world, because this is where we see a lot of different biases. And it’s tied into ageism—we can get into that, that’s a whole other episode as well. But we could talk about this for hours, right? I want to talk about the fact that maybe women who didn’t go the kids route were able to focus more on their careers. Perhaps not always, but maybe perhaps a little more in general. And women who had kids don’t realize that women who didn’t have kids also experienced their challenges, right? Because people who had kids say, oh, I couldn’t get back into the workforce right away, I never found my bearings again, people didn’t like the fact that I needed to work from home, and whatnot. But I think people who didn’t have kids also experienced challenges. Can you fill moms in on what they might have been?
Lisa: Absolutely. So I think a lot of it does stem from the literature that’s out there on unequal pay and women being behind men in terms of those kinds of monetary pay for work, because there is a high correlation with women who’ve stepped away for a while from the workforce, right? So a lot of that disparity can be driven by time taken away from working outside the home. And we all know that working inside the home is just as difficult, I don’t need to be a mom to champion for that. What is interesting is that for somebody in the workplace like me, who wasn’t always necessarily…I work in financial services, and in general, there are a lot of men in the industry, and maybe not as much representation of women as my firm would like, as we would like as an industry. You know, the burden can shift unnecessarily to expectations surrounding single people: well, she has nowhere to go, or no, she doesn’t have a family to go back to, she can do this, or we can send her to Lawrence, Kansas, because it takes two trains and a bus to get there. But I’m not saying that that is necessarily what happened all the time. I’m not even saying that necessarily happened to me. In fact, there were instances specifically where I volunteered for that, knowing that some of my colleagues had other commitments and obligations to do that. I mean, you’re a team at work, right? But in much the same way, I do think that there could be a bridge to gap. If I’m with a colleague of mine, let’s say we do an equal amount of work in the workplace, and she’s taken time to be with her family and raise children and she feels she should be at a certain level, it’s just like, OK, so if I’m not at that certain level, does that make me a failure? So if I’m not a director, and I’ve taken no time off from work to raise a family and that’s not happening for me in a fast enough timeframe, what’s my excuse? Like, I’m just not good enough? Like, I’m not doing the work? Listen, I don’t lack self awareness. Maybe I’m not as great of a worker as my made up example of the person who’s taken time to raise children. But there are also some…I shared this with you ahead of our conversation today. I had a former coworker of mine go into significant detail in a conversation with me about how being a parent makes her so much better worker in the workplace.
Maryann: I’ve been guilty of saying that, too.
Lisa: So her angle was like patience that parenthood teaches. So I hear what she was saying, right? Like, the counterfactual is that I will never know. But when we got to a certain point, it just got a little…I couldn’t say anything, but it was a little discouraging to keep hearing that type of talk track, right? It’s just like, be careful. I mean, the women that this person was around, maybe they wanted to have children and can’t, you know? You don’t know anybody’s fertility journey. I think it lacked a certain amount of self awareness in the context that I’m describing, to where I think if she had thought about it, she might not have wanted to go overboard on what a great what a great worker she is now that she’s a parent. I mean, I’m happy for her if that’s the case.
Maryann: Well, it’s interesting when you brought this up to me in our initial conversation, because I hadn’t thought of how that would have come across to women without kids. But I think for me, I generally have expressed that sentiment when talking about the fact that it’s so hard for moms who took a hiatus to get back into the workforce. And I think it’s a valid argument, if, say, you’re talking to a headhunter or a possible employer and saying, look, this is how I filled my time. You know, I was like co-chair of our PTA, I was on the board of my kids school. I mean, you not only have to be a great organizer, but you have to be a psychologist, like you said [laughs], you know, have patience. So I think it’s an argument for why I haven’t just been sitting on my ass eating bonbons. But you’re right, it’s not a good argument to take into the boardroom when you’re at a job. I feel like that’s a little bit low. I mean, it kind of doesn’t feel fair to me, because she has the job already. She’s kind of on equal footing to all the other women in the office, you know?
Lisa: Right. It’s an interesting paradigm. And I hear you. I completely agree. I think it’s a huge…That’s a whole nother podcast idea, right? The talent that we have out there and the difficulty that women have reentering the workforce when they want to and they’ve taken time to be with their kids. I mean, that’s so fantastic and should be lauded. I can’t even pretend to understand why a woman would not be attractive in terms of as a potential employee, given those life circumstances and what she’s chosen to do. But you’re right, at a certain point in the reentry, I think we have to be cognizant of other people’s lifestyle choices or journeys in the sense that everybody brings something different to the table, right? And that’s part of the diversity.
Maryann: Right. So also on the social front, like dating and whatnot, you mentioned another thing that blew me away. You said you’ve had close male friends tell you that they wish they could introduce you—to a potential suitor, right?—as their friend who was divorced, instead of explaining why you are normal, but you’re not married and don’t have children. That blew me away. I can’t believe that.
Lisa: So I think, strangely, that I know what they were going for with that comment. I’d like to think that it’s because I’m normal and a suitable potential partner for somebody. [Laughs] I can’t pretend to know what somebody said when they articulated that, but I sort of understood what they meant. I don’t know the population statistics. I know that women who have never been married are a growing percentage of the US population versus, you know, versus years ago. So it’s certainly a non-traditional path, but it’s not something I’ve necessarily ever felt the need to apologize for. But I thought it was sort of interesting that my male friend had mentioned that, because I get what he’s saying. Like, introducing somebody at our age, Maryann, like, is there a commitment issue? You know, your mind just goes to the armchair psychologists, like, OK, does she have commitment issues? They’re like, what’s her hang up? She seems so normal, but… [Laughs]
Maryann: [Laughs] Well, you’re lucky you have friends that can speak to your “normalcy”. But I have to say, this may be a generational thing, because I look at younger millennials and my kids’ generation. And they’re not so keen on marriage to begin with. They have all sorts of relationship models in front of them. Sometimes they don’t even talk about marriage until they’ve had kids. They start living together really quickly, it’s just they’re forming their own sort of relationship model, and I think it’s fantastic. So I don’t think it’s gonna be weird to their generation, when they’re in midlife to say, oh, someone’s never been married. Because that could mean all sorts of things, right? You could live with someone for 20 years, you could have kids with them.
Lisa: Oh, absolutely. No, you’re right. And I think a lot of the societal expectations are…I like to think that the generations behind us have blown up that. I mean, it used to be…and my dad used to always say this, because you always get questions from friends of the family, right, Maryann? It’s like, what college are you going to, what’s your major gonna be, have you rushed? Or like, who are you dating? And then if you’re dating someone, when are you going to get married? And then when you’re married, when are you going to have kids? And my dad is such an amazing guy, and he just said to me, he’s like, Lisa, people don’t know what to talk about. It’s like, you’re at a certain stage in your life, and they’re just trying to propel the conversation forward. It’s not like an indictment of sort of where you are in your life, or if you don’t have your dream job, or if you didn’t get into grad school, or whatever it is. And when I actually saw it through that perspective, I was like, oh, well, that’s really interesting. And then I also have to credit my parents with never, in terms of your…You know, we all have relationship models. And I look at the friendships that they’ve made throughout their life and how they inspire me, and they’ve also never put that—and I know many people our age don’t have this, but—those societal expectations on me, either. Like, oh, you really should be married by now, you should have…I’m so free from those shackles, and I have my parents to thank for that. But I think it’s helped me be a better person and a friend, actually.
Maryann: Yeah, good point. And if there’s one thing we parents need to stop doing, it’s asking our children if they have a boyfriend, a girlfriend…Just stop it, stop it. I’m making that declaration right now. End the madness.
Lisa: I love it, Maryann. I’m all for it.
Maryann: Like, if they want if they have somebody they want to introduce, they will do it. Stop it, grandmas. Grandmas do it more. OK, so another funny thing I want to bring up is…I should tell our listeners that Lisa does the most amazing adventure travel. She’s such an adventurer. She goes on these treks all over the world, and I’m so jealous. That’s going to be my midlife thing that I’m going to start doing more of, hopefully, maybe with Lisa sometime. But there are times when moms who are feeling really bogged down with the small children do feel a little jealous, like I want to be doing that stuff, too. And when I told you that, you said to me, being single is not nearly as exciting or as lonely as one would think. So it’s kind of like a double edged thing. So tell us what you mean.
Lisa: It is, you know, I’m very fortunate, I do feel very blessed. And being single does permit you, of course, to make your own schedule. So travel is important to me, and I’ve been able to do these amazing trips. But guess what? I go by myself. I mean, in the beginning, that was a little intimidating, especially international travel. And when I started doing this in my 20s, basically nobody wanted to come with me. So that’s why I started doing it. What was really fantastic are the people that I’ve met along the way. What I found fascinating along that travel—and I was so worried that I was going to be like the only person that wasn’t paired up, or it didn’t come with a friend or a partner—was the fact that there were so many other people who were single or married or partnered up, and their insert friend, spouse, significant other, whatever it was, had zero interest in going to this destination. So what was amazing to me is that I go on these trips, and there would maybe be a dozen people. And there’d maybe be one couple. Sometimes there wouldn’t be a couple at all. And I think that opened my eyes to just what you said at the beginning of the podcast, that many relationships take many different forms, and there are many types of partnerships and relationships. And it was very liberating for me to see that, and to realize that it’s no big deal to travel by myself. And I’ve met some fantastic people that I’m still in touch with after several years. Some of us have even come together and traveled repeat times to do other destinations. It’s been really fun and a real blessing. The counterpoint to that, of course, is what you described with what I had said before, which is like it’s a blessing and a curse. Like people think that I’m always going out on these dates or meeting these other people and going out, and it’s like, yeah, OK, so that’s not happening nearly as much as any of my married friends think it is. [Laughs] But then, on the flip side of that, it’s not nearly as isolating or lonely…like, I don’t need anyone’s pity, right. Like I’m very fortunate, and I feel very blessed. And even though I’m by myself, being alone is not the same thing as being lonely. I had a friend of mine, she’s a dear friend of mine. And I used to bake and go over to have dinner at her house. She would graciously have me over for pizza. And I just love her family, she’s fantastic. And I really enjoy baking, and she had to answer the door one time during dinner, and she had explained to her friend or her neighbor who had come over and was just dropping something off that…I think she offered her some cookie or something that I had baked, and she kind of threw out like, well, Lisa’s single, she can do this kind of stuff. And I just was like…Oh, it was just so cringeworthy, Maryann. I knew that she didn’t mean it, but I was like, oh my gosh, so that’s the perception that I have out there? That all I am is in my house in my kitchen, baking for my friends? [Laughs]
Maryann: Well, that’s the opposite image I had. I think that’s funny. Maybe that’s her fantasy, because we tend to project our own fantasies on being single, if you have kids. So my fantasy may be hiking in Nepal or wherever, and hers may just be being alone in the house, because God knows you’re not alone in your house very often with a husband and kids.
Lisa: It could be. It’s really funny to hear. And by the way, I’m friends with all these people, including my male friend who wants to partner me up and tell people that I’m divorced, these people are very close to me in my life. I just have to sort of laugh when you hear these quips and you’re just like, oh my goodness.
Maryann: Well, we’re all getting quirky in our midlife. OK, so moving to midlife, now. Do you think things are changing? I mean, because my kids are now…I have one in college, one in high school, and I feel like I have more time for my friends. I feel like I have more time for hobbies, personal interests, doing things again that don’t involve, you know, motherhood and baking. And I do feel like I’m enjoying reconnecting with some of my friends that I’ve known for years, but just haven’t had as much time for. Do you think this time of life is ripe for that sort of friendship reunion?
Lisa: I do. And again, we touched on it a little bit earlier with COVID. I think COVID has brought that sort of front and center. I also have to say that I’m not on social media at all. So I know that social media can be a really easy way of seeing what people are up to. I’m not on that. So it’s like for me, you have to put a little bit more effort and work into the organic and finding out how people are doing, rather than looking them up, if you will.
Maryann: I have to point out that you’re just gonna lose all the eligible bachelors that might be viewing this. Not that many men are listening to this, but you never know.
Lisa: [Laughs] I’m OK with that, but thank you for thinking of me, Maryann. I think that because people like you have more time, and your kids are so great when they’re college age and high school age—I mean, they’re starting to do their own things, right, and become their own young adult independent people, just like you and your husband were at that age. I mean, realistically, I met you when you were your daughter’s eight. So I think it’s so fun. And yes, like, go to those reunions. If you haven’t done that, I encourage people. It takes so little to reconnect with people and I think the vast majority of time, you’d be very well rewarded, if there are people who are listening to this who are like, oh, you know, I was thinking about so and so but hadn’t talked to them. And while my dad has told me stories, through the years, of people that he had thought of that he went to grade school with or high school with—and he remains essentially in the same town, same zip code, where he grew up, God bless him, he’s 81. And I just marvel at his ability to pick up the phone and call somebody he hasn’t talked to in a couple of years, and to hear the stories of how that turns out for him. It’s like, that’s fantastic. I love that. In my opinion, we all should be doing more of that.
Maryann: I totally agree. One thing that was really funny was when I suggested to you a couple of weeks ago that it’s harder to make friends in midlife, you said to me, I violently disagree. I disagree. Not, I disagree. I violently disagree. Why is that?
Lisa: So, years ago, somebody I was dating was sort of asserting that the older you get, the harder it is to make friends. And I just wholesale reject that notion.
Maryann: A lot of people say that. He’s not the only one.
Lisa: Oh, yeah, they do. They do. Yes, so that’s like a thing. And I couldn’t disagree more. Don’t don’t get me wrong, there have been points in my life where…And I’ve moved to new cities, and I’ve moved around, and there have been a couple of times where I’m just like, I’m really not connecting with this person as a friend. And I’m just like, why am I…You know, it’s OK to not have somebody that you meet as a friend, somebody that you keep up with, right, like permanently. It’s just we’re all in a different lane sometimes. But I think you just have to be open to the possibility. And I feel very fortunate, and again, I guess I would point to travel as expanding my horizons. It’s like, you can make friends of any age and at any age, and there are some people that I wouldn’t have met otherwise unless I was traveling who are very close to me in my life right now. And if I had remained closed off…as our mutual friends have said, it’s harder. That wouldn’t have been possible. So I think it’s a mindset. And I’m never going to have the friendship with somebody I just meet that I have with you, Maryann, in the sense that we went to college together and we have all these wonderful experiences that we’ve shared over the decades, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be unique and beautiful in its own way.
Maryann: I totally agree. I mean, I’m a lot like you. I think we’re similar in this way that we are good at keeping up friendships, that we reach out. You’re an extremely thoughtful person, you’re probably one of the most thoughtful people that I know.
Lisa: Oh, so are you. Oh please, right back at you. Mutual admiration society.
Maryann: [Laughs] And while I agree, for some people who don’t have much experience, or maybe at no point in their lives gathered a group of friends—maybe they didn’t go away to college, maybe they didn’t work in a corporate environments, maybe they work from home all those years, you know—I could see how it would be harder if you’re just starting out to make friends. But there’s one thing I need to point out. It’s so interesting, and it took me by surprise. When I started this podcast just a couple of months ago, I got on Instagram for the first time, and like you, I hated social media. I have met so many amazing women in this space of over 40.
Lisa: Oh, how interesting.
Maryann: Like, a lot of women are getting into this space of over 40 development, women’s issues. And a lot of women are actually in England and other countries. England, Australia and…
Lisa: Oh, international. Love it.
Maryann: It’s international. It’s a great community. I never expected that would happen, but it is, and it’s phenomenal. So you’re right. You just never know where you’re going to connect with people, how it’s going to happen. Just be open, right?
Lisa: Exactly, I think that’s the key. What’s been the most surprising thing that you’ve learned from those women that have either reached out to you or connected with you in that way?
Maryann: Honestly, I think it’s been…Well, it’s not exactly these women that I’m meeting, but I’m learning from them that one of the reasons that they’ve started their projects like I’ve started mine is because there is so much shame attached to this time we’re in now, this life stage. There is shame attached to the word midlife. I’ve had people DM me and say, don’t use that word, this podcast is gonna fail if you use the word midlife or middle age.
Lisa: Oh, how interesting, like from a marketing perspective.
Maryann: Yeah, like, people don’t want to be associated with that, especially if they’re in their 40s, not their 50s yet. And I find it remarkable that we women have so much shame about being in midlife, and I’m trying to change that.
Lisa: You’re trying to break it. I love it.
Maryann: Yeah, and one thing a lot of these other women in this space are doing is trying to break that.
Lisa: I mean, we’re gonna live to be 100, right? And we’re gonna hopefully be very active until the day that we drop. So I mean, we’re halfway in it. We’re only halfway there.
Maryann: I tell people, I have news for ya, honey, you’re in midlife. If you’re over 35, technically you’re in midlife.
Lisa: You know, I commend you for that effort. Gosh, I do think it’s going to take a lot, but it’s starting. I like the idea of taking apart these taboos. Now where do you think the shame comes from? It’s interesting, I mean…
Maryann: I think the shame comes from the image of what we’ve seen in the past.
Lisa: Yeah, the youth oriented nature.
Maryann: In movies, TV, whatever, just seeing what a middle aged woman is supposed to look like. This frumpy, you know, almost invisible creature. And not the leading lady, you know, the quirky neighbor upstairs, or the babysitter who comes by. I mean, it’s never this vibrant, engaging, full of life woman that so many of us actually are. And I think that’s changing. And we’ve talked about this repeatedly on this podcast. It’s changing because it’s not just men making all these movies and TV shows and writing books anymore, it’s women.
Lisa: Right, as it should be. I love the international component of what you’re doing and how people have reached out. I think that’s a great example of friends—and when I say friends, I mean people you connected with and who could be friends, you know, in this way. I mean, who would have thought that like a year ago, right, before you started this? That’s the dimension we’re talking about. You have to be open to that in your life and making those connections, because we’ve only got one life to live, right?
Maryann: Totally. I think another beautiful thing about midlife is that we are open. And you mentioned to me that another perk of being this age is not being judgmental anymore. And I totally agree with you. What does that look like for you?
Lisa: Well, I think it’s a factor of one of the things that has been a real pleasant surprise. And I think because I’m a trustworthy friend, this has happened to me. It’s just like, there have been some pretty deep and heavy issues that some of my friends along the way have chosen to confide in me about, and I’m very grateful, and I hope that I was able to provide some comfort. The only way through it is or past it is through it, right? So you just never know what people are going through. It’s very interesting. But I think as I was being that friend, I recognized…And remember, I’ve taken what is, in our generation, a rather non-traditional path, right? Like I am not married and I don’t have children, so I already am like outside the norm or, you know, off the beaten path, or the road less traveled. So there is some comfort in confiding in somebody like that. And I would like to think that I have an open mind. I’m fascinated that you say that you feel the same way only because, of course, you have children, and I’m sure you have opinions about some of the choices that your children have made. Do you know what I mean, where I’m going with that? Whereas I don’t have any of those experiences. So I feel like that also takes a layer of judgment away from me. I mean, I had one of my friends say this to me, she’s like, oh, if my mom ran my life, she thinks she’d be running it so much better than I can. And I just laughed out loud at that, because I knew both her and her mom and they were both great people, but I had to kind of chuckle.
Maryann: Yeah, I mean, of course, as a mom, you’re gonna look at some of the choices your kids make, and say, well, I would have done it differently. But I have to remind myself constantly that they have their own paths, right? They are on their own life paths. And we as parents can only guide them and support them and love them. And for all the parents out there who are trying to control, again, I’m gonna say, stop. It’s the worst thing you can do, and it will send them running in the opposite direction. I’ve seen it time and again. Regarding the judgmental thing, I just feel like it’s the stage of life we’re in, in general, because the longer you’ve lived, the more you’ve experienced, the more you’ve seen your friends experience, the more you just know about life and how it works. And you just let go of a lot. You let go of those judgments and those expectations of youth, and you realize everybody’s different, everybody’s coming at life from an entirely different perspective.
Lisa: Preconceived notions, I think, fall away. And I think it’s either easier at this stage to be less competitive, and more supportive.
Maryann: Absolutely, yes. I’m so glad you brought that up. I feel as I get older, I hardly ever get jealous of anybody or anything. That’s the funny thing.
Lisa: You know, that’s a loaded word, right? So, that’s…Yeah, I would agree.
Maryann: Competitiveness, jealousy, whatever. It’s the…
Lisa: Comparison, it’s the comparison.
Maryann: Comparison, yes. I forgot who said—and I will put it in the show notes—that comparison is a violent act against the self. And I love that.
Lisa: Oh, I like that a lot.
Maryann: And it’s so true, because you’re in your own lane, you’re doing your own thing. What is there to compare to?
Lisa: You know…The lane comment is what triggered me with this next question: do you find yourself taking friend inventory?
Maryann: What do you mean?
Lisa: In the sense of somebody’s just not, like…You are in your lane, and we’re all we’re all directionally headed somewhere together. It’s like, if somebody’s taking that energy, lane hugging, crossing that line with you, do you feel that at this stage in your life, you don’t have time for that kind of situation? I feel like as we get older, as I get older, that I’m more attuned to…This person is not supportive, and that’s not a friendship that I want to be invested in.
Maryann: Yeah, I think I was using lane in a slightly different way. I think what I was talking about is for the comparison sake, like, I have my own life path, so I shouldn’t compare myself to somebody who’s at a different point than I am, because their swerves are going to be different. But to your point, I think what you’re saying is if somebody’s kind of not sharing your general kind of outlook or path forward, is that what you’re saying?
Lisa: Well, not being supportive, you know, like people who can be very self centered or just suck the energy out of…
Maryann: That’s toxic, and I have no time for that.
Lisa: OK, good. Yeah.
Maryann: No more. And that took me…I’m a recovering people pleaser, Lisa. And it’s taken me years to figure this out for myself, but I am done with that.
Lisa: That’s a good thing. At this stage in our life, who needs that, right? It’s not a friend count or how many you have, it’s the quality of the relationship.
Maryann: Yeah. And I will never be unkind to anyone or unsympathetic, but I feel like you shouldn’t give your time to anyone who’s not going to prioritize you in return. And to anyone who just, by the sheer nature of being with them, doesn’t make you feel good. Right? It’s not worth it.
Lisa: Yeah, and we all know those people. But I agree, I think they need to be…Friend inventory is what I call it.
Maryann: Yes. I like that.
Lisa: Just kind of decide and move on.
Maryann: Well, you are gonna stay in my friend inventory until we die, I just hope you know that. Like, it’s gonna take a lot to get rid of me, OK? Even if I move out of your lane a little. [Laughs]
Lisa: [Laughs] No, no, no. You can merge into the lane just fine. We’ll all be on the same road, it’s gonna be great.
Maryann: Sounds good, all right. Oh, Lisa, this was such a great conversation. Is there anything we missed?
Lisa: Oh, I don’t know. I mean, I guess one question I would have for you as somebody who’s at this point in her life, what are you looking for in friendship? I think that’s a good question.
Maryann: Good question, yeah. I think I’m looking for people who I could laugh with, right? Because life is short. If we’re lucky, we’re only midway through. And again, I don’t have patience for toxic attitudes. Oh, here’s what it is for me. I believe there’s a book called growth mindset or something that has to do with mindset. Yeah, it was called Mindset or something. And it talks about there being two types of people. One type is always learning, always growing, trying to find what they’re all about. Discovers, right? Seekers. And then there’s the other type, which is like, they’re stagnant. They believe in the old assumptions about themselves. They never tried to rewrite their story, you know, they’re just stuck. And for me, the older I get, I have more trouble being friends with people who don’t have a growth mindset. I think that’s it for me.
Lisa: That is fascinating. 100% agree.
Maryann: If you’re not still in the game and working on it and working on yourself and being open minded, there’s really no point for me, you know?
Lisa: 100% agree, Maryann. Violently agree.
Maryann: [Laughs] And that’s why we’re in the same lane. Well, I hope everybody out there got something from this, and I hope they will call a friend today and reconnect.
Lisa: I love that idea.
Maryann: Yeah, everybody should go do that right now. OK. Thank you, my friend. I appreciate you so much.
Lisa: Thank you Maryann. Likewise.
