The following is a transcript of this episode. It has been edited for clarity.
Intro: Let’s face it, we know we’re women of substance. But if we’re being honest, we can also admit that it’s not always easy to see ourselves aging in the mirror. No one understands this better than Laura Schuckburgh, a life and menopause coach who’s also had a career as a model. On this episode, Laura and I discuss how we can get past the anxiety we may be feeling about our changing looks, to a place of acceptance and even enlightenment. We also talk about why aging and menopause are still taboo topics, especially in the workplace, and how educators like Laura are working hard to change that. Welcome to More Beautiful, the podcast for women rewriting the midlife playbook. I’m Maryann LoRusso, and I invite you to join me and a guest each week as we strive for a life that’s more adventurous, more fulfilling and more beautiful than ever before.
Maryann: Welcome back, everyone. Full disclosure, I’m just returning from a family vacation and I have a little bit of a cold and I’m jet-lagged. But I woke up with a little spring in my step this morning because I knew I would be chatting with the lovely Laura Schuckburgh of Marvelous Midlife. Welcome to the show, Laura. How are you?
Laura: Hi, Maryann. I’m very well, thank you. And I like that you’ve got a spring in your step. Oh, my goodness, that can be exhausting, can’t it, actually?
Maryann: It’s a killer, especially the older I get. I think it gets worse.
Laura: Yeah, but you’ve had a nice holiday, though?
Maryann: It was a wonderful holiday, thank you. And thanks for being here.
Laura: Oh, my pleasure. It’s lovely to be here. It’s very hot where I am. I’m not that far away from where you were, but we’re having a heatwave here.
Maryann: Where are you right now?
Laura: I’m in the middle of France, and it’s going to be 40 degrees on Saturday.
Maryann: Ah, wow. I just returned from France and it was not that hot. So I guess we lucked out. We left just in time.
Laura: I think you did, because this is too hot. It’s not comfortable for me, but it’s just what it is, isn’t it?
Maryann: Well, stay cool. And we’ll try to keep the conversation not so heated, OK? [Laughs] So everybody, Laura is a coach for women in midlife as well as a menopause educator. And a little bit later, we’re going to be touching on the work she’s doing to spread menopause awareness. But first, we’re going to chat about something that’s probably on the minds of most women in midlife, the topic of whether or not our changing looks are affecting us, and how we feel about those changes. Laura, at some point in our lives, usually after age 40, a woman looks in the mirror and discovers that things may be starting to look different. And that can be tough. Do you think it’s hard on some women you coach? And if so, why do you think that is?
Laura: Yeah, I do think it’s hard on many women. I think it’s probably hard on all of us at some point because, well, I think we live in a really ageist society, Maryann, for the start. And I think when we hit midlife and we go into menopause, it can bring up a lot of feelings. And within those feelings, there can be things like anxiety, loss of confidence. And then on top of that, we’re getting older, and the process of kind of looking in the mirror and seeing, you know, that we’re aging can be a big pill to swallow, when we get to that stage. And I think because of the fact that we live in this age of society, rather than in the east where they seem to revere the wise, older people, we just seem to be kind of fixated on youth and anti-aging, which is something I can’t bear. I don’t buy anything that has anti-aging on it. I can’t stand it.
Maryann: Yeah, so true. I hate that term, too. And I think the youth obsession is probably worse here in the United States than it is in Europe, because everyone just tells me that. I think that my European friends are just far more accepting of their aging bodies and faces. But you’re saying it’s still going on there, too. You feel it.
Laura: Well, it’s interesting, because I do feel it, but I did feel it more when I went back to the UK. So I think the UK maybe and America and the states are on a similar par in that way. And I noticed that there seems to be a lot of young people kind of pumping themselves with fillers and Botox, and they sort of end up feeling or looking the same. And then when I come back to France—I’ve only been here for sort of a year and a half, but have traveled here fairly regularly—I almost feel like the women here seem to age more gracefully, which is kind of what you were saying there. Maybe there’s an acceptance. There don’t seem to be people who are pumping themselves full of so much stuff as I’ve seen in…
Maryann: I agree. I was just in France, and I was noticing that there were a lot of women dressed the same as the younger women, like wearing their flirty, short dresses and their sandals and their hair just long and free flowing and not much makeup. And they have this very youthful but natural appearance. They didn’t seem injected or, you know, had a ton of plastic surgery, like a lot of American women I see. And they just seemed like they were easing into their older years with so much more grace. And I love that.
Laura: Yeah. You’re saying, I think, to be able to ease into your older years with more grace. I like that word, grace, actually, I think that’s a phrase. I think also what I’ve noticed here as well is that women seem to be happier in the process of getting older, which I think comes from an inner wisdom. So they don’t feel the need to have the plastic surgery. Because I think when it comes down to it—and I’m talking from my own personal viewpoint, so this is not for everybody—but I think when you start having plastic surgery and you start thinking that you’ve got to like kind of plump yourself with fillers and have loads and loads of Botox—and for full transparency, I have had Botox and I have tried a filler as well. But it comes sometimes from a place of insecurity within us. And I find that interesting. Almost to find something, or fix something or do something, because we’re not accepting of where we are.
Maryann: I agree with that. This notion of, we have to fix this thing called aging, like it’s an ailment that we have to do something about. But Laura, you’re a former model, right? And in fact, you still model from time to time. Can you tell us a little bit about your earlier career and how you started to feel working in this industry as you got older? Because if there’s any woman who’s most affected by her changing looks, it’s probably a model’s, right? It’s her livelihood that we’re talking about.
Laura: Yeah, exactly. And I’ve had to sort of really do quite a lot of work on myself in the last few years around that, always being judged and accepted and paid for what I look like, rather than what’s inside my head. So for many years, I’d go to modeling jobs, and some people would rebook you because they liked you, but at the end of the day, your face and your body had to fit. And I would go all around to different countries modeling. And I had an amazing time, actually, I had a fantastic time. But there was always the thing that you needed to be skinnier. Even though I wasn’t a fashion model, I was an advertising model. So every time I would go to an agency, I remember going to Japan, and the first thing they do when you get there is they measure you all over, like your thighs and everything. I mean, what does that do to you as a young woman? I think it’s completely unhealthy, I think it makes you view your body in a way that is not natural. And you’re always trying to be something that you’re not and fighting that all the time, having to be skinnier and skinnier and skinnier. And you can see how so many models get anorexia and bulimia, and it’s just not good. I think the fashion industry has a lot to answer for.
Maryann: I agree. As you know, for many years, I worked in fashion journalism. So I saw firsthand how models were poked and prodded with measuring tapes and Polaroid cameras, and it was all about, as you said, the measurements, the looks. And I remember feeling really uncomfortable around that and feeling like, oh my gosh…like, first of all, you feel like, I’ll never size up to that. That’s a crazy, impossible standard. These poor models can’t size up. And then I thought like, well what happens when you do turn 30? What happens when you turn 40? Like there was…I didn’t see any models over age 40. And we don’t have time to go into the whole, like, racist aspect. I think our generation really just saw white, super skinny—especially in the 90s the heroin chic thing—super skinny models, and very young models. And I think that really stayed with our generation, it really affected us, and there’s no way we came out of that unscathed.
Laura: No, for sure. And also, I just think, when you’re talking about that now, how really counterintuitive it is in many ways for fashion industries to be putting clothes onto models that don’t really look like anybody else. And then thinking that that’s a way that people are going to buy more, because then when you put something on, you’re not probably going to look the same or as good as them, so then you feel shit about yourself. How does that work, really?
Maryann: Nowadays, we’re seeing more and more diversity, right? We’re seeing models of all colors, shapes, sizes, heights, and we’re seeing a little bit of the age diversity too. But I was talking about this with a friend of mine, and saying how I feel like it goes from 15-year-old models to seemingly 70-year-old-models with gray hair. You know, it’s like they want us to see this older woman instantly. Like, there’s nothing in the middle.
Laura: Yeah, there seems to be too many stereotypes. And it does go from one extreme to the other. And I remember when I was modeling, and I would go for a casting with maybe 10, 20 other women who would go, and it would be maybe for a woman who was in her mid 30s. And they would cast women who are in their mid 20s. I would be at the time in the middle ages for this age group. So it’s almost as though they still wanted younger models to portray this, thinking that that would work. And I do actually think that a lot of it is because in the advertising industry, in creative brands and industries, it’s quite a young career, or it’s kind of like a young place to be. So maybe it’s about the people who are making the ads as well.
Maryann: Of course. I always look for stock photos for my website, my blog and stories that I’m writing, and every time I do a search for midlife or middle-aged women, like you said, I’ll get a picture of a 30-year-old. It’s not anyone who’s really in midlife, or if they do show women in midlife, they look [much older]. Or, you know, there’s just never anybody in the 40s and 50s range, and I find that so fascinating.
Laura: Yeah, and I do the same when I’m doing stuff with my menopause. And if ever I put menopause or menopause women in a group, they’ve always got silver hair, kind of really stereotypical, maybe with a fan or something. I think the advertising industries have got to wake up to that. It’s interesting, though, because I was asked to talk on a panel a couple of weeks ago, and it was for a new campaign…by Tena…called the “Last Lonely Menopause.” It’s really good. It’s gritty. It’s about a woman and her daughter. I like the way they shot it and everything. And I got asked to come down and talk about that. And we got into a conversation about, you know, ageism in the advertising agencies and how it needs to change, it really does. Because also, it seems, again, really counterintuitive, because women 50 plus, who have got a lot of disposable income, need to be respected and advertised to in a way that is going to make them want to buy the products. You know, when somebody’s patronizing you, you don’t want that. We’re too wise and experienced for that to just kind of make us want to buy their products. They have to be more clever.
Maryann: Yeah. I don’t have the numbers in front of me now, but I have brought that up several times, about how we have enormous monetary power right now. And the group of women in that over 50 category is growing, so I agree that’s going to have to change. And it’s a shame that it has to be all about the money for it to change, right?
Laura : Yeah, we need to be sympathetically advertised to, or empathically, you know, so that we think, oh, yes, I can relate to that woman there.
Maryann: Right. Just like I think the sizes the retailers offer have expanded and the models are becoming more diverse, I think we need to see the same thing with age. The last time we spoke, we were on Zoom, and you told me something interesting. You said you were zooming without any makeup on, which was very different for you, because you used to have to always put on some makeup to go into a meeting. And I love that you had this newfound confidence that you said came with midlife. Why do you think that happened to you?
Laura: I think it’s happened to me because I’m just more accepting of myself. And funnily enough, I was actually thinking about that before I came on a minute ago. And I was just thinking, I’m so hot. And actually, really, when I looked at myself, I thought perhaps I should have put a bit of makeup on, but I’ve just got lip gloss on again. But no, because it’s that kind of old pattern, that old narrative: oh, I need to get my face on, I want to look the best I can look. But this is me, this is how I look. And there’s something quite empowering about being there and being real for me now, being authentically myself. And it’s not always easy for me to do it, but I am working towards it being more and more easy. I’m finding it easier as I do it more.
Maryann: Right, right. So, whether we like it or not, we’re gonna see our looks change when we look in the mirror. And I think some women can handle it better than others, you know, looking at their changing faces and accepting it while others are in denial or want to just immediately run to the plastic surgeon like you were talking about. Why do you think the wrinkles and sagging bother some women more than others? What’s going on beneath the surface, do you think?
Laura: That’s a good question, actually. I’m only one woman, and I coach a lot of women, but it’s always hard to answer for how other people feel. But I suppose if I could think about it from my own perspective, and for some of the women that I’ve coached, again, that word acceptance comes to me. And I think, with midlife and with menopause especially, it’s about not denying the process that we’re going through. It’s inevitable that we’re aging, it’s inevitable that we’re going to die, and how can we kind of be accepting of all of life’s process, of all of life’s transitions? Because with that acceptance, it gives us some peace. It gives me peace, that acceptance. And I think if you’re fighting against the process…like a lot of people that come to me, or that I speak to, are almost in denial of being in menopause. For instance, they are grieving the fact that they are in menopause because they can’t have any children or because they’re aging. And there’s a kind of grieving process in there, which I think is OK, as long as you grieve and then you move on. But some people don’t ever get past the stage of moving on, and I think accepting change in general comes into that. I like and accept that everything changes in life, but not everyone does that, and we don’t stay the same, do we, when we look in the mirror. There has to be some sort of acceptance. I love Mel Robbins, her 54321 and also her high-five in the mirror in the morning.
Maryann: Oh, yeah. I love that too.
Laura: It’s so hard to do that, but I’ve started doing it and I just go, high-five Laura. And I make sure that if I’m sort of being a bit negative, because I’ve got a mirror in my bedroom and a light that’s not very forgiving, I just high five myself every morning.
Maryann: Yeah, when you’re younger, you don’t even understand what good lighting means. I remember, my mother used to be like, oh, the lighting in here is great. I didn’t know what she was talking about, because I looked great in every light, you know, and then you get to a certain age and you really get what that means.
Laura: Yeah, it can be the difference between a really nice picture and you feeling accepting of yourself. So yeah, there’s always tricks to that, nice lighting, isn’t there? Always being in front of a window is a really good one.
Maryann: At certain times of day, right.
Laura: The evening, or the morning…
Maryann: Well, it’s interesting that you used the word grief, because I was thinking this morning about what this all means. And I thought of the word mourn, to mourn something, because I remember going to a dermatologist a few years ago because I was getting some major [hormonal] hair shedding and wanted to do something about it. But I didn’t want to go on meds. I was basically like, hey, listen, I’m not going to go on these medications. What can I do that’s more homeopathic? And she basically said there’s nothing I can do except take vitamins. Then she told me, go home and mourn the fact that your hair is never going to be the same. At first, I was really offended by that. I was angry. And then the more I thought about it, I thought, you know, she’s kind of right. Like, things aren’t going to be the same, and I do have to just acknowledge that. [Laughs] Like, should we be talking to our body parts with sympathy, you know, being like, hey, upper arms, I know you’re never going to be as taut and firm as you once were. But you know, I’m going to mourn that.
Laura: [Laughs] Well, yeah, that would be good. So there, you’re thinking that actually it’s about celebrating part of the process, rather than mourning or grieving as well, comes to my mind when you’re talking about that. How can we celebrate this process?
Maryann: Well, both. I think letting go and then celebrating the new phase, right? Like, well, my hair may not be as sleek and glossy and thick as it was, but you know what, I still have hair and I love it. And, you know, just kind of celebrating what we have now and living in the moment, like you were saying.
Laura: Yeah, living in the moment. I think living in the moment has been one of the things that I found has been my sort of savior in the last couple of years, because I came out of a marriage and quite an interesting backstory of getting to France and a big sort of midlife move, really. And in amongst all that, I realized that before I made my move, and during my move, I was very much living in the future, which was causing a lot of anxiety. And I think if we can come back to the now, which is really the only moment that we have, there’s a lot of acceptance in that as well, so that could be used with our aging process. You know, this here right now is where we’re at. What’s good about it? What can we be grateful for today?
Maryann: Right. And I also think it’s good to have a sense of humor about it. Like, a lot of women are afraid to say that they’re missing the way things once were, or they’re bummed about their changing looks, because we were taught, you know, beauty is only skin deep, don’t be vain. And I think women are afraid to be vain sometimes, but I think it’s healthy to say, look, I’m bummed out about this, but it’s OK. You know? I can let go.
Laura: Absolutely. And it’s alright to celebrate the way that we look, as well, and to feel like we are beautiful, or that we can feel that and accept ourselves. Because I remember when I was younger, you know, using that word vain, which is something that you don’t really hear very much. My mum said that to me, oh, don’t be vain. So therefore, you think you’re not to celebrate that. There’s a lot of baggage with that kind of language when we talk to our daughters.
Maryann: Yeah, that’s so true. I don’t hear that word as much anymore. Another generational thing that we had on us. Well, you also said in an earlier phone call that we had that there’s a part of you that still admits that you want to feel attractive and you want to have men look at you. I thought that was so honest and so refreshing of you to admit that. How do you really feel about missing that kind of attention? And do you think most women do miss it?
Laura: Well, I still have it, but I don’t have it quite as much as I used to. And I suppose that is a thing that comes with age, because I’m still fit and healthy. And I’ve got a good body, because I work hard to stay healthy and I exercise and work out, so I’m still an attractive woman for 50.
Maryann: I love that you say that. I love that you can say that.
Laura: Because it’s not always easy to say that. So, I still do get my fair share of people looking at me, but I noticed that it’s much less than it used to be. I would turn heads when I walked down the street when I was between 20 and late 30s, really. And that almost comes with feeling, I suppose, feeling maybe a little bit invisible. And I also remember feeling like that at different times in my life when I maybe had a different hairstyle, like I remember having very long hair once and then having it cut very short, and the difference that that made to the attention that I got as well. That was interesting. So all of these, I find it all quite interesting. And also at times when I’ve felt not as confident or I’ve been going through a phase where I felt maybe low or depressed, which I have done a few times in my life, I know then that I don’t exude the same kind of confidence, and that’s attractive. Confidence is attractive. So therefore, those times I wouldn’t get the attention. So yeah, I think it goes hand in hand with what I hear from a lot of my clients. They do feel a bit invisible, and they feel like they’ve lost part of themselves. So again, that’s another sort of grief thing, isn’t it? I just don’t feel like I used to feel, is something that a lot of women say to me.
Maryann: Yeah, I did a whole episode called The Invisible Middle-Aged Woman, in which we talked about that phenomenon of feeling invisible. And it is a word that is still used by many women about how they feel right now. I do agree, though, it is changing. I do feel like…Have you heard of the concept of the male gaze and how men have controlled, historically, for generations, how we see things. And the movies and television and books, it’s all from the male perspective. But I think as women are now taking control of all these different things, we’re seeing different gazes of different types of people, and different perspectives. And it’s not all focused on the woman as the young, beautiful sidekick to a guy. So we’re seeing that women have so much more substance, and it’s not only about looks. And I’m so excited about that, as I see more female directors out there and more females producing shows, and I think we see everything from an entirely different viewpoint.
Laura: Oh, yeah. It’s very exciting, actually, isn’t it? It’s so exciting. And I’ve also sort of changed the way that I feel is sexy. You know, like wearing high shoes and all that sort of stuff, you know, like stilettos that are really uncomfortable. Now, I used to always wear high shoes in my 20s when I went out, but now I’m very comfortable and feel just as sexy wearing my flip flops when I go out for dinner. So again, it’s kind of fighting back and thinking about what makes us feel sexy rather than who we want to please, as well.
Maryann: Right. Well, I’m 5-foot-1, so I wear heels. [Laughs] And it’s not to get attention, just to feel like I don’t have to look up at people, basically. I am going to be really upset the day that I can’t wear my heels anymore.
Laura: Oh, well, you’ve got a long way to go before you can’t wear your heels. I think I like wedge heels. I’ve just bought a pair of wedge heels, which are quite high, so…
Maryann: Good for you. Well, I just wanted to point out for our listeners out there, and I’ll put this in the show notes, there’s this book called Face It: What Women Really Feel As Their Looks Change and What to Do About It by Vivian Diller. The author talks about all the stuff we’re talking about, and one of the chapters addresses how some people are in denial, and their reaction is to fight it off. Like you said, get the plastic surgery, buy the makeup, and just do all the things you can do to look younger. And that’s also controversial now, because I’m hearing two sides of this whole thing. When you see actresses like…I always talk about her, but Jennifer Lopez, you know, looking like she’s 30, some women think that’s inspirational. And other women think, oh my god, do I have this new standard now? Do I have to look like that at 50? What’s your take on that? Do you feel upset or threatened by other women who look so great for their age, or do you feel inspired?
Laura: I tend to feel inspired by other women who look great for their age. Sometimes, I do feel like there’s a little bit of unfairness. I don’t even like that word, unfairness. But the fact that so many stars have so much money to be able to have some tweaks if they want to, and they look amazing. It is very difficult to keep up with that if you’re going to be somebody who is just going to go down the natural route.
Maryann: Good point, yes.
Laura: So there is that, the money behind that. But then I also feel a bit sad for some women who are doing it and actually look older in the process. Because it’s almost like it’s the irony of having plastic surgery or having too much of something that just makes you look older, because it shows that you’re just trying to be younger, rather than the women that you saw in France with their flowing hair and stuff who look their age and look fantastic, you know?
Maryann: Yeah, it’s probably a happy medium, I think, of looking the best you can at your age. And that comes from within. Having a healthy diet, exercise, and like you said, having that confidence. And if you look younger because of that, I mean, more power to you, right? But you shouldn’t seek it just by running to the surgeon.
Laura: Well, no, because that’s serious stuff, isn’t it? Like going under the knife for chasing youth. There’s a slippery slope in many ways, because apparently—I’ve read up on this as well—plastic surgery, for a lot of women, when they are having tweaks, becomes a bit of an obsession. And so you have one thing done, and then you say, oh, I’ll just have something else done. It’s just a slippery slope, really. And I’m not judging, because I’m not judgmental, or I try not to be, so each to their own, I say.
Maryann: Totally agree with you, to each her own. I’m actually recording an episode about that with a friend who works in a plastic surgeon’s office, and we’re talking about how it is a slippery slope. And I agree with you. If a woman feels more empowered going to get something done, great, that’s wonderful. I just hate to see when it’s the only thing a woman does, when she sees her whole value and worth tied up in her looks and her face. Because I see women who would look just as gorgeous with wrinkles, absolutely stunning.
Laura: And in fact, sometimes more so, you know, because they are being their authentic self. And going back to that sort of sadness about trying to search for something externally, whether it’s your looks or whether it’s a bigger car or a bigger house or more clothes and all of that, I’ve really pared back on all that lately in the last few years and realized that actually, it’s so much more important to do the work within, rather than trying to get that sort of external validation. It has to come from within, because you’ll always otherwise be chasing something, the next thing, whether it’s a facelift or a bigger car or the next handbag.
Maryann: It’s so true. My mom used to say to me, there’s always gonna be somebody prettier than you, smarter than you, richer than you, whatever. So, right, looking for that external validation is just lunacy.
Laura: It is, and it’s kind of something that is unattainable. You’ll never get there.
Maryann: In your business, you’re also committed to raising awareness about menopause. On your website, you talk about how you were floored when you went through this phase a few years ago. Why do you think, Laura, menopause took you by surprise and overwhelmed you so much? And do you think other women feel that way?
Laura: Oh gosh, yes, I think they do. Even though there’s so much more momentum in the news, especially in the UK, with talk in the media and famous people talking about menopause. When I went into perimenopause, four or five years ago, I had no idea what it was. I didn’t even know what the word perimenopause was. And I just started feeling hideous. I started feeling really anxious, I lost all my confidence, I became a bit agoraphobic. And at the time, I was working in a really busy architecture practice that I was running with my husband, and I had a really front-facing job, doing lots of presentations and meeting clients. And I started to just dread going out to meet clients, or having to talk to somebody if I met them on the stairs on the way to the office. And it was just really out of character for me, for somebody who was a very confident woman, to become this shadow of my former self.
Maryann: Were your symptoms just over the top, looking back?
Laura: Well, they kind of crept up on me, really. The anxiety became more and more. I got driving anxiety, so I’d get panic attacks when I was driving on the motorway, even though I used to drive all over the country in the years leading up to it. And I had this intense fatigue, where I just couldn’t do anything in the afternoon and I had to lie down, and these awful night sweats, and I wasn’t sleeping. And so little by little…but I had regular periods, you see, so I didn’t think I was in menopause. I didn’t feel old enough.
Maryann: You were in perimenopause.
Laura: I was in perimenopause. But at the time, I hadn’t even heard of that. So I thought to be in menopause, you had to be kind of old. [Laughs] How wrong I was. And then I remember one day just going to the wardrobe and looking for something to wear to this meeting. And I just could not even choose or put an outfit together. And I just kind of like…I’m just tumbling back into bed and thinking there was something completely wrong with me. I thought I had early onset dementia, I felt so awful. Brain fog, forgetting things.
Maryann: That sounds scary.
Laura: It was totally scary. But I did do loads of research, and then I kind of realized that I was in perimenopause. And it was almost like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders, because now I knew what it was, and so therefore I could do something about it. And I think that’s why I’m so passionate now about helping to raise awareness of it, especially within workplaces, because I think as women, we’re very resourceful. And as soon as we know what’s going on with us, we can make a plan. And menopause is very manageable, when you know that you’re going through it and you have the resources and the signposting to where you can get help and support.
Maryann: I know. And thank God for the Internet, right? Because our generation is really the first one that is going through perimenopause that went through perimenopause with the Internet. And, I mean, the Boomers to some extent, some of them. But imagine if we just had to rely on our mothers. Some of us didn’t have that.
Laura: Looking back, I knew that my mum…I can recognize some of her symptoms, like bouts of anger and being really kind of snippy and annoyed with us all the time, and she was right in that age group. She thinks that she just sort of sailed through menopause. She can’t really remember it herself.
Maryann: Interesting.
Laura: I do recognize that she was going through it for sure. So yeah, thank goodness that we’re talking to our daughters and the generations who are coming up behind us, and they will be much more empowered now and know much more about it. Because in the UK, they’re actually going to put it on the curriculum, the school curriculum, so people will be learning about it at school.
Maryann: That’s so great. And I’m seeing so many more celebrities get into this realm of menopause awareness, too. You mentioned the Davina show that really shed light in the UK, and here in the US we have Brooke Shields, who’s doing a lot on menopause, and Paulina, the former model, and Stacy London has a new menopause line. So it’s getting more visibility, don’t you think?
Laura: Oh yeah, definitely. It’s like it’s gaining momentum and so much more talk about it and products. I’ve even noticed menopausal products in the UK coming out. Loads of people are jumping onto this menopause sort of bandwagon. It’s becoming a bit of a buzzword, really.
Maryann: And so you say you go into companies as well. What sorts of issues do you help companies deal with that are related to menopause?
Laura: Well, I go into organizations and I do menopause awareness session. So one of mine is called “Demystifying the Menopause”. And it would talk about how you could spot all the signs and symptoms, how you could have sensitive conversations, how you could support somebody, a colleague, maybe a family member, who’s going through menopause. So that would be kind of like a knowledge session. And then I do things like manager training, like line manager and leader training, where we go in more depth into how you have a sensitive conversation, how you manage a woman who may be in menopause, how you can implement policies within the workplace, simple workplace adjustments, all of that sort of thing, so that women feel supported. But it’s about changing the workplace culture, as well. So I like to say to organizations, when I’m doing these things, that I hope by the end of this session, you will feel more comfortable even to be able to say the word menopause, because it is still a little bit of a taboo topic. And I think if we can open up the conversation within organizations and workplaces, women will feel more supported and more able to approach their line managers or, if they’re going off and being absent, they can say why they’re going off. For organizations, it’s really important for them for their productivity, and for retaining and recruiting staff, to be aware of the impact of menopause within the workplace. So when you start talking to organizations about that, they become more interested, because it’s about their bottom line as well. Because there’s so many facts out there, you know, that women are leaving their jobs completely unnecessarily. Like 88% of women in a recent survey said it affected their work life. There’s all sorts of statistics out there about how it affects you.
Maryann: Yeah, it’s so true. And yet, when I mention this to people I know who work in HR here in the United States, they look at me like I’m crazy when I say you need to address this. I mean, they’re not even addressing issues like child care in the workplace. So they look at me like, oh god, we can’t do that, it would go against privacy, it would be seen as discrimination, like we’re honing in on this thing that women don’t want us to know about. And then I just feel like, wow, what a missed opportunity. Like, they’re kind of seeing it the wrong way.
Laura: Yeah, in a sense, like seeing it very negatively. And also, some women might not want the organization to talk about their menopause. Each individual is unique. And of course, some people will. It is a sensitive subject. Some people won’t want to talk about it or open up about it. But if we can have a culture that is open, and actually knows the impact within a workplace and that this is happening…because it’s almost like the attitude is like, well, we just don’t want to deal with it, we just don’t want to talk about something that’s going to happen to every single woman in the universe in the planet. Every woman on this planet will go through menopause, and four out of 10 women have severe menopause symptoms. And I mean, I could just bombard you with statistics, but the impact of it within the workplace is huge, in terms of productivity, in terms of absenteeism, in terms of the bigger economy. So for HR, and for companies to ignore it, I just think it’s crazy.
Maryann: It is crazy. I can understand the fear that some women have, though. It’s like, you know, it’s hard enough to get to the top at some companies, but then to be seen as possibly having this sort of thing be held against them, like, oh, this woman, she’s going to be missing work, she’s going to be get moody…I think women are afraid of that, because there’s so much ageism already in the workplace. Are companies finding a way…are you helping them find a way to address this, while making it seem totally manageable for women? And like it’s not going to hurt a company to, you know…you know what I’m getting at, right?
Laura: Yeah, of course. I think it’s about getting some policies together. So basically, if an organization can have a workplace policy that includes menopause, or a standalone menopause policy, so that there are some some guidelines and some ways that they can support, some best practice that they can put into place, and workplace adjustments. And actually, women don’t need to be leaving, they can be supported very well within the workplace. And I think also, one has to be a little bit careful because here, more and more women are taking organizations to tribunals because of unfairness or because of discrimination based on on their menopause. Even though menopause is not actually cited as a disability, it can come under age or sex discrimination. So there’s this, and because there’s more talk about it, there are more people going to tribunals and actually winning.
Maryann: So interesting. Wow, I’m wondering whether we’re going to see that here. It’ll be interesting to watch.
Laura: I think it’s only a matter of time, because I think here, it’s really going to be a matter of time before it’s a compliance issue. And we have to have those kinds of guidelines in place within workplaces, a bit like what mental health is like in the UK. I mean, in the States…but here, you know, there’s been a lot of talk about mental health in the last few years, and that’s become much more acceptable to talk about within the workplace and have guidelines and policies around.
Maryann: Right. And certainly, the pandemic has made many of us aware that working from home can help with dealing with these symptoms and all the other challenges that come with menopause.
Laura: Absolutely. It’s good, because I think if you are extremely tired and you are working at a time—and that might be you know, who knows, the middle of the evening or something—it’s much better than being in office. You can manage your time better. But then, on the other side of that, there is the whole challenge of then going back to the workplace, and then the anxiety that that can sometimes bring for some women.
Maryann: Yeah. I think that, everybody is grappling with right now. Well, Laura, that sounds fascinating. Thank you so much for doing this work. It is so needed right now. It’s amazing. Any last thoughts on women? I know you’re coaching so many women, but back to the topic of changing looks and all that, do you have any inspiration you could offer women out there who might be listening? Maybe they’re at a crossroads, or they’ve lost their mojo, or they’re a little bit sad about just aging in general. What are some words of wisdom you might be able to offer?
Laura: Oh, gosh, words of wisdom. So there’s that put on the spot. I’m not sure I’ve got any words of wisdom, but I would say becoming accepting or accepting where you are in your life. And if you feel that that is not happening, go and seek some help with that, so the help of a coach or a counselor. I think midlife is a time when a lot of stuff that maybe we’ve pushed down in our lives that we haven’t dealt with comes to the surface, and I think it’s about addressing all of those things. It’s about starting to actually think to myself, well, why am I feeling like that, and giving yourself some space to actually unpick that a bit, whether that’s just like space on your own, going out into nature, doing some meditation. But really listen into what it is that you want. And I think, within that, there will be some acceptance, and I think within the acceptance, then you are much more able to cope with whatever life throws at you, whether that’s aging, or whether that’s menopause, or whether that’s any other transitions. So for me, it always comes back to doing the work on ourselves.
Maryann: I love that. And we didn’t really talk about this, but maybe underneath some of that insecurity about aging is our deeper desires, that if you really stop and listen you can uncover. Maybe it’s not about your looks at all—it usually isn’t. It’s about maybe something that you’ve always wanted to do with your life or some other change that needs to happen. And you know, metamorphosis. That could be exciting.
Laura: Oh my god, I love that. A metamorphosis. Yeah, I kind of think about it as a sort of…midlife is like a reemerging. Or it’s like a butterfly and a cocoon. Menopause can be a time of a lot of change and perimenopause and midlife, but actually, on the other side of that, it’s a beautiful time of acceptance. And I think in Japan, they call it the second spring.
Maryann: Yes, I love that.
Laura: And I think that’s such a positive way of thinking about it. There’s a lot of wisdom, there’s a lot of joy on the other side, when you get past it and you accept it. I feel I’m in a much better place than I have for a long time, but that’s because I’ve dealt with a lot of my stuff, you know, a lot of my demons and a lot of the things that I hadn’t dealt with before. And I’m not living in a life that’s full of shoulds, you know, like that kind of, I should be doing this, I should be happy because I’ve got this, or I should be happy because I’ve got this job. Who says you should be happy? Be honest with yourself, you know, is it really happy? Because it’s time to address it and think about it. You know, we could have another 30 years, couldn’t we? And that’s a long time to be living a life that’s not congruent with your values, or not full of more joy, or not doing stuff that you really want to do. This is a short, precious life.
Maryann: I love tha. And good for you, for doing the work and finding your bliss. That is just…I’m so happy for you.
Laura: Thank you. I’m happy for me, too. [Laughs]
Maryann: [Laughs] Yes, you should be. So, Laura, tell us where we can find you online.
Laura: Oh, you can find me at marvelousmidlife.co.uk. I’m on Instagram, it’s marvelous underscore midlife. I’m on LinkedIn, Laura Schuckburgh. I’m “marvelous midlife” in most places, really.
Maryann: Did I pronounce your last name wrong? I’m so sorry.
Laura: It’s fine.
Maryann: OK, I got close.
Laura: Very close. So close that I didn’t even need to sort of say anything, but my name gets said wrong quite a lot. But it’s, yes, Schuckburgh like Edinburgh.
Maryann: Thank you so much for being on the show today. It was a pleasure having you, and enjoy the rest of your evening—it’s evening there now.
Laura: Yeah, and you enjoy the rest of your day, and I hope your jet lag is not too bad.
