The following is a transcript of this episode. It has been edited for clarity.
Intro: Yes, it’s a fact: midlife divorce is on the rise, and it’s common for couples in long term partnerships to experience waning passion and intimacy. But today’s guest on the More Beautiful podcast, an expert in helping couples reignite their relationships, says connection and communication don’t have to fade, even after 10, 20 or 30 years together. We talk about why many couples drift during this life stage, how it’s possible to keep growing—both together and as individuals—and why midlife can actually be the best phase yet of your relationship. Welcome to More Beautiful, the podcast for women rewriting the midlife playbook. I’m Maryann LoRusso, and I invite you to join me and a guest each week as we strive for a life that’s more adventurous, more fulfilling and more beautiful than ever before.
Maryann: Hi, and welcome back to the More Beautiful podcast. My guest today is Deanna Bryant, a midlife marriage strategist and the founder of Revive Your Midlife Marriage. Hi, Deanna. It’s so great to have you on the podcast. How are you today?
Deanna: I’m doing great. How are you doing, Maryann?
Maryann: I’m doing great. Happy New Year.
Deanna: Thank you. Same to you as well. It’s off to a chilly start where I am.
Maryann: [Laughs] That’s right, you are in Tennessee. Yeah, I didn’t think it got too cold there. I’m in San Francisco, and it’s actually unseasonally cold here. It’s in the 40s, so…
Deanna: Oh, well, we don’t have a lot of cold weather, but we do have a little, we do. It can get pretty frigid from time to time.
Maryann: Well, stay warm. Hopefully our conversation about passion and igniting marriage will warm you up a little bit. [Laughs] So as you know—because we spoke last week—I am so excited about this episode. I think it’s such a great topic that we’re talking about today: how to reinvigorate a long term relationship. Now, your specialty is helping couples in midlife. Tell us about your journey to this work and why you decided to focus on this particular phase of marriage and relationships.
Deanna: It’s basically because of my life experience. I had been an educator teaching composition at the local university here for years. And about five years ago—we were married 20 years at that time—I’m working, kids are older, and we’re finding our relationship just…is blah. There just wasn’t anything there. I didn’t know if I still wanted to be in it. It was a difficult time for us. And what happened was it came down to, we don’t know what to do here, we’ve never been at this spot, and we need outside help. And we hired someone and started seeing them and realized we had no idea what it took to sustain a long term marriage over all the seasons of life. And we were in a new season. So we had to go back to the drawing board and learn some skills. We had to clean up some wreckage of the past. And then we had to say, OK, what’s not been working? Why is it not working? And move forward. And how to communicate with each other in a way that says, you’re important to me, I care how you feel and think, let’s work together on this. So we did all this work. And then I thought, what can I do to help other couples like us? Because I hear it all the time, the statistics on gray divorce. Of the different different demographics, it is our group—midlifers—that have the most divorce.
Maryann: Right, I heard that, too.
Deanna: Yeah, and it’s so sad to me. And I thought, what can I do to help others? Because I think that so many times, it’s not that we’re married to the wrong person. It’s that we absolutely have no idea what we’re doing, and have no idea how to figure it out. And so I thought, if I could help couples do that, maybe it will prevent them from having to go down that road. I’m not saying that divorce is absolutely never an option. I’m just saying, give them a chance to get things back on track before chucking it to the curb.
Maryann: It’s interesting that you said you guys couldn’t do it yourself, right? Because when a lot of people have challenges in their relationship, they think, well, I could read some articles, read some books, we could fix this, we can talk. But it’s interesting that you found you needed some outside support, and that’s why you decided to be that outside support to people. What is it about getting that objective third party that helps?
Deanna: I think it’s because that third party is not so emotionally invested in the relationship. So you have someone that’s looking from the outside in and is able to see things that you two aren’t seeing, because you’re in the thick of it. They can see where you’re having a breakdown of communication, they can see where what you’re saying is going sideways in the conversation, and they are able to just kind of be a guide. You know, definitely not a sensei, but somebody that can come in and step there in that gap and pull them closer together. Now, of course, I don’t do any of the work. 10% of the work is done working with me, but the 90% is when they go home and begin implementing some of these things. But I find that most couples…Some couples can do it on their own, but I don’t know many.
Maryann: Right. So let’s go through some of the common challenges that couples face in midlife. And by that, we’re talking about like over 40, right, kids are either older or have left the nest. Tell us what you’re seeing.
Deanna: What I see the most is that couples have become disconnected. What happens a lot of times is we’re so connected in all the right ways when we’re dating. And then we have kids. And here we’ve been standing face to face with each other, focused on each other, giving everything to the relationship, and suddenly we’re raising kids and we’re standing side by side. What happens in so many marriages is that once kids come, couples never refocus on each other in the relationship and what it needs, because they’re so busy. And I was guilty of this, and most of us are. We get caught up in the raising of the children, the meeting their needs, the dinners, the sports games or practices and, you know, building careers, and we never turn back to focusing on that relationship. It happens more times than not. So it’s no wonder that couples get to midlife and think, we have no connection anymore. Well, it’s because we’ve been focusing on everything else but the relationship—because after all, good parents sacrifice everything, don’t they? Right? Good parents do this, good employees do this. But what does a healthy relationship need to do? Couples need to continue to focus on each other in the relationship, and it just kind of goes by the wayside. That’s what I call intimacy atrophy. It’s when you’ve lost the intimacy in that connection, because you’re not doing the same things you used to be doing. Right? You get to midlife, and that’s where you are disconnected.
Maryann: Yeah, you said somewhere…I think I heard on your podcast that you and your husband had three choices when you were dealing with the difficulties in your own marriage: You could stay miserable, you could get a divorce, or you could change your approach. How did you decide to choose the last one, and how did you work on it? Where did you start?
Deanna: You know, we always think that the husband is the one that is resistant to getting help, but I was the one resistant in getting help, because I just thought, you know, what is somebody going to tell us that we don’t already know? I thought, if we can’t figure it out on our own, there’s no point. So he kind of dragged me along—which I tell couples, OK, if your spouse doesn’t want to come along in the journey, just let them come reluctantly in and see what happens, because it changed everything for me. And we began to learn what we were doing wrong, and what it takes to have a healthy marriage. What did we need to do differently? And it began a deep dive into both of us as individuals, into our relationship.
Maryann: Right. Deanna, don’t our needs in a relationship change the longer we’re together? Because, you know, we’re not the same people now as we were when we were 20 or 30, or however old we were when we got together initially. So my question is, how does a couple still grow as an individual while they’re growing as a couple? And is that what you’re talking about when you say you’re losing sight of each other?
Deanna: I think we have to grow as an individual. I think anytime that your focus is totally on the relationship and how that makes you feel is a dangerous place to be. And we do have to grow as individuals, and what I find a lot of time with midlife couples is they both have grown. They have changed. But that connection and being able to share that with each other and talk about it in depth just hasn’t happened. They’re not really talking about, I see this differently, or this is how I’m feeling. We’re just changing, but we’re not staying connected about the changes. We’re not staying in that intimate conversation that says, here’s what’s going on with me. Here’s what I’m thinking. Because our thoughts and our behaviors change as we age—I am not the same woman that I used to be. Have I kept up about who I am becoming with my spouse, or have I just shared that with my girlfriends? You know, am I sharing that with my spouse and talking about those things? I think those are certainly important things to do. When you are growing personally, I think sometimes we might have this idea that we are becoming better than our spouse. And I see this happening. Sometimes one or other of the spouses will seem to be growing in certain ways, and the other one doesn’t seem quite to have those same aspirations for personal growth. Then there becomes this judgment of here, I am growing, I’m becoming better than you. And so we would pull away further. But what we have to understand in our own personal growth is that if your spouse is not growing at the same level you are or not growing in the same way, that’s OK, because that’s who they are, and your growth can’t be dependent on what your spouse is doing.
Maryann: Yeah, that’s a really good point. That’s a really, really good point. I never thought about that. Because also, doesn’t growth occur for everybody differently? Like, you could be growing right now, but in a year, you may be stagnant and your spouse may be growing, right?
Deanna: That’s exactly right. It flips so much of the time, because we’re each going at different levels. And I think a lot of times we want our spouse to be on the same page with us, on track with us, right there with us, and that doesn’t always happen. So your personal growth, that’s really your responsibility. And we should be growing individually, as well as in our marriages. Sometimes I think people will focus more on doing things for themselves and taking care of their own needs at the expense of considering, what does my marriage need? So personal growth has to be balanced by that idea that my marriage is important as well as my personal growth. It can’t be all just about me.
Maryann: Right. And that feeds into your theory that it’s a myth that a good marriage is an easy marriage. Tell us why.
Deanna: Well, when I first did that episode on the podcast, I knew people were going to be thinking, I’ve never heard anybody say marriage is easy. But I’ll tell you why I think they think it is easy. When it gets really tough, the first thing everybody thinks about is, I just want out of this relationship.
Maryann: You talk about the importance of learning new relationship skills, changing old patterns and doing things differently with intention. Can you give us some examples of how you work with clients on accomplishing all that?
Deanna: I’ll just give you one example of omething I do about doing things differently. Getting
in touch with each other’s needs, learning how to communicate better…You were talking about the changes we go through. One of the big things that I find is couples really don’t specifically share what their needs are or their expectations are in the relationship. So one exercise I do with couples, especially if what you wanted and needed was so different in the beginning from what you need now—and it is so much of the time in midlife—I have couples sit down, and they both make an individual needs list for the marriage and for each other. And they take time to think about it, and then they share this needs list with their partner, and they talk about them. For instance, my husband has a need on his list that he gives to me, and I’m not sure what it is. So I ask him a little bit more about that, and I find out what he means by that, and then I can say, I can do that. Or, I will try. Or, I’m not sure how, but I’ll work it out. Because what happens is that couples don’t know what the other expects of them. They don’t know what they need. A woman says, I need affection outside of the bedroom, but every time her husband touches her like he always does to have sex, she gets angry and pulls away. She hasn’t expressed that need to be touched outside of the bedroom so that he understands it, because all he’s seeing is her angry behavior, because he’s doing something that’s making her angry. So understanding each other’s needs and expectations is an exercise I do with all my couples, so they know this is what they need. And they’re often very different needs. What I need and what you need are going to be very different in our marriages, but oftentimes, couples don’t talk about it. So that’s a huge part of my program that we do, getting down to the basic needs we have in our marriage and talking about them with our spouses. Not with our friends, not complaining to our girlfriends, but actually talking with our spouses about what we need. A lot of times, it takes getting to know what you need. And you know, as we get older and become midlifers, we have a better sense of who we are, and we have a better sense of what we need. I probably know better my needs today than I did when I was 20. So this is a prime opportunity to have a conversation with your spouse, especially in this new phase when new things are happening.
Maryann: That’s such a good point, we do know ourselves better now, more than ever. I love that. So let’s talk about passion, because everybody wants to talk about passion. In one of your podcast episodes, you tell a story of a time you were at a wedding and the married couples at your table were staring at the bride and groom, who were giddy with affection for one another. And someone at your table said something like, let’s see how long that lasts. I found that very sad. Like, I think you said you did as well. But in the episode, you also talked about the fact that despite what most people think, it is not natural for passion to fade in a long term, monogamous relationship, that it’s more of a sign of inaction. Please tell us more about that.
Deanna: Absolutely. Well, this idea in our culture, that passion is that chemical reaction you have when you’re in the presence of this soulmate that you have, is not true. This whole chemistry thing, this excitement, this craziness you feel, or you felt at the beginning, that is not the only passion that is available to a couple. Passion is not just that chemical reaction that we had when we were teenagers or when we were in college and we met our spouse. We have the idea that passion is only about that chemical excitement that we had at the beginning, and so when that begins to wane, we feel like we have a passionless marriage. What’s really happened is you’ve stopped doing the things you did at the beginning of your relationship that were stoking this fire. So when I say passion shouldn’t wane, passion shouldn’t wane any more than a fire will not stay lit if you are putting wood on it. The only way the fire is going to die is if you stop feeding it, and I believe that is the same principle for passion and relationships. But it starts by doing the little things. And if you’re looking for that crazy feeling you had at the beginning, that was immature passion. I believe that in midlife, we can have more passion and more depth than we’ve ever had before. And what I often suggest for couples is that to build the passion you have for each other, you need to change your mindset, because you need to be in a place of gratitude about your spouse. And one of the things I have couples do is make a gratitude list about their spouse when they are feeling like, I don’t know if I love them, I don’t know if I feel passion. A gratitude list of everything they love about their spouse, all the reasons they married them, the things they love about them now. And it begins to get the couple in the frame of reference of what’s right about this person. Because if you’re thinking negatively, you’re not going to have a lot of passion for your spouse. So you have to change that mindset about what is good about my spouse, and then you have to be so intentional with physical touch. And I don’t mean you’re making out on the couch every night. You know, passion is not just about the sexual act. In fact, for most women, I would say the passion has to come along before the sexual act for us to even be at that point of enjoyment. And getting that passion is about going back to the little things. The touches, the longer than that quick hug, making it an eight second hug. More kissing on the lips—not a peck, but really kissing on the lips, with the intention of…Now, I used to be afraid to do that, because I thought, well, if I kiss my husband like that, he’s going to think we have to have sex right now. So I would say, you know, every time I kiss you this way doesn’t mean I’m trying to have sex. And I think that’s true for a husband and a wife. You cannot just touch your partner when you are trying to place an invitation to have sex. You have to be stoking that fire of passion, from the time you finish a sex act ‘till the next time you start another one. That’s when foreplay begins. You stop having sex this time, foreplay starts for the next time. That means touches, that means not sitting on two opposite ends of the couch, sitting closer together. That’s putting your hand on each other’s legs, that’s doing these little things. The little texts during the day. And I’m not saying you have to send dirty texts to your spouse, just little texts during the day, especially if they’re having a tough day, just a reminder of how much you love them and you’re thinking of them. These are all ways of building passion in a relationship. And another thing that really builds passion is true intimacy. So if we get back to learning how to communicate about everything and we’re touching each other intentionally—not as an afterthought, we’re choosing to touch each other—we’re going to have more passion in our relationship, because we’re connected on a head and a heart and a spirit level. And so that passion is built in that way. But it has to be intentional.
Maryann: I love that you talked about those little connection points that you can make with each other, you know, throughout the day and the week. Like, the texts and the playfulness and physical touch. Because that is honestly one of the most common complaints I hear among my friends about their relationships, that my husband only woos me when he wants to have sex. So those are some great tips. I think our husbands should listen to this podcast.
Deanna: I think women do have to sit down and have these conversations. A lot of times we don’t because we don’t want to seem needy, or we think our spouses should know this, and if they’re not doing it by now, they never will. And sometimes we just have to say, instead of bristling every time we’re touched when we know that’s the sex touch, is just to say, you know, I love it when you touch me. I would love for you to touch me more than just when you would like to have sex, because it means a lot to me. You know, if men understood that they would have more and better sex if they did certain things with women, it would make such a difference. [Laughs]
Maryann: [Laughs] So true. And you also say that play is an important part of sustaining passion, right? How can we infuse more play and affection into our relationship?
Deanna: I think play is when we get back to the real essence of our childhood. And that means saying what really brings us joy, and getting to those places in our lives. People think, well, when you get in midmidlife, you’re gonna have all this extra time. Well, a lot of couples are still working, and they’re still paying for kids getting through college. Not all midlifers are necessarily in retirement. But it is an opportunity to find, OK, we do have more of a window of time here. Maybe it’s not a lot, but we’re going to use what we have to have some fun together. We’re going to put the chores on hold this weekend, or we’re going to just table this, or you know…Life is really busy. Let’s look at our calendars and plan a trip in a few weeks. What really would you like to do? And coming up with those things that bring you both joy and fun together. And I think also in this, you have to be flexible with a spouse. Because you know, I find this with couples, what one partner finds joy and excitement and fun in, maybe the other partner doesn’t. And sometimes it’s OK to be like, we’ll go where you want to go this time, because I do feel joy when my husband feels joy and vice versa. There’s that give and take of sometimes we may do what you want, sometimes we may do what I want, but we’re going to support each other in finding our joy in the relationship and individually.
Maryann: Right. And I think that’s one of the nice things about getting older and the kids getting older. You have more time together to kind of pursue hobbies that you hadn’t had time for, just to be together alone, right?
Deanna: Yes, I mean, you’re like me, I think you have one left at home. I have a 16 year old left at home. But you know, we still have so much time together that sometimes we think, we’ve not talked this much in so many years, it’s almost insane that we’re talking as much as we are. Because you remember the days where you couldn’t get a word in edgewise with your spouse because of the kids or their schedules. And you’re just, you know, quick calls, you never could really sit down and talk. But it is a key, opportune time to reconnect with your spouse and to find time to play. And when I say play, I don’t mean just going out to dinner with each other. That’s fun, but doing things that you haven’t maybe done before, that one of you thought, you know, that’d be fun to try, let’s try that. Because sometimes we get in a rut because we’re playing the same way for 25, 30 years, and it’s no longer fun. You know, coming up with new ideas as well.
Maryann: Yeah. I love the photo you have on your website. There’s a great photo of you and your husband just laughing. He’s hugging you, and you’re laughing. And to me, now, that epitomizes play. I think of that photo.
Deanna: It does, it really does. And it’s fun to play with your spouse and to be cheeky, and to laugh with each other over the silly things, because that’s what brings real intimacy with each other when you’re sharing all aspects of your life.
Maryann: Yeah. You say another common complaint among clients—and this is sort of along the same lines—is that they say they’ve fallen out of love with their partner. Does this go back to what you were saying before? Like, the feeling of butterflies? Are they equating that with being in love? And what is this “in love”? Is this a myth? I mean, is our generation just so caught up in this rom com fantasy of being in love? What’s going on?
Deanna: Well, I think there is a very big difference in the being in love at the beginning of a relationship, all that excitement and chemistry, because I really think it should be called being in lust. Being in love comes later. All that excitement and that craziness we equate with the best it could possibly ever be is really not true, because love is not about chemistry. Love is not about all that excitement at the beginning, because there wasn’t a lot of depth there. Love is about exploring life with someone in a committed, loving relationship and saying, you know, I’m in this with you for the long haul. We are going to do this together. Not because I feel all this chemistry passion, but because I’m committed and I choose to love you. I heard this story about an elderly man, and he and his wife had been married for like 50 years, and they asked him, well, what was the secret of a happy marriage? And he said, I’ve loved every woman she’s ever been.
Maryann: Oh, I love that.
Deanna: Because he chose to love her as she changed, as she became something different. In the different phases of her life, through the difficulties, through the trials, through the losses. And that’s what love is about. Love is about choosing to be in a relationship, and bringing all your best to it. I don’t think it’s all the feelings and craziness. I think that’s lust.
Maryann: I really do think our generation has set the bar crazy high for passion and romance. It’s kind of the opposite of what our moms and grandmothers were taught, that you’ve got to stick it out no matter what. I think women of our generation out there end up feeling very disappointed because they’re comparing their love lives to like, you know, the scenes in Bridgerton or something. Are we all just putting too much pressure on ourselves?
Deanna: I think we’re putting too much pressure on ourselves, because we’re buying a bill of goods that is not necessarily true. But I think that’s why people get out of a relationship. How many times have you heard someone say, I love him or her, but I’m not in love anymore?
Maryann: All the time.
Deanna: Right. That’s not possible. What you’re really saying is, I love this person, but I’m not in lust anymore, I don’t feel any passion for them anymore. So I think I’m just gonna go on and do my thing, and move on and get in another relationship. What happens is, you’re going to be bringing your same relationship skills that you had in the past marriage of whiskey to the next marriage. And chances are, if you continue to repeat those same patterns, you’re going to get exactly what you left. That seems to be the pattern I see in so many couples. They leave for, you know, to find love. And they think that passion is there when they get to the new person with all the lust, but the relationship kicks in just the same. If you can’t fix what you’re in now and you just go to the next one, you’re probably going to be taking some of those same skills.
Maryann: Yeah, and there’s a great book called Wherever You Go, There You Are. Right? So you’re going to be taking those same issues you have into every relationship, like you said. Similarly, our partners are supposed to be everything to us, right? It’s kind of an impossible standard. They’re supposed to be great co-parents, great friends, lovers, housemates…Again, do we need to go easier on ourselves? Because how can we be everything to one person and vice versa?
Deanna: I don’t think we can be everything to one person, because we are just who we are. And if we are in a relationship, if my husband is wanting me to make him feel that he is perfect and complete and that he needs to be all this, we have to realize that each of us is bringing in different things into a relationship. There are going to be strengths and weaknesses. My husband is not going to be great at everything, and I wouldn’t tell you that he was great at everything. I wouldn’t tell you I have a perfect husband. You know, he’s really good at some areas, and some areas he’s really not good at. Now, I have two choices: I could peck on those things that drive me crazy that he’s not good at and just continue to just pound and pound and pound on them, or I could realize that I, too, am not good at everything. I’m not going to be great in every role in the relationship and every role I play in life. So if I can have some grace with my spouse not being everything, then hopefully they can have grace with me. Because I’m not going to be perfect and everything. This idea of having this perfect spouse that meets all your needs is the biggest lie we are told in this rom com fantasy world that we live in. No person is going to fill all your needs and be a perfect person in your life. If you’re going to get married, be prepared to not be happy with your spouse all the time, but to love them in spite of it, because you too are flawed. You know, we can’t all be great at everything.
Maryann: So true. You say that unfortunately, some women ignore it when the sexual part of the relationship is floundering. But you say we need to address problems in the bedroom because when sex and intimacy are good, there’s a ripple effect on the rest of the relationship. Can you elaborate on that?
Deanna: Yes, I think sex is very important in a relationship, and I think we midlifers hear a lot of women saying, you know, my hormones are really messing with me. I’m not as sexual as I used to be. I don’t want to have sex as much as I used to. But, you know, it’s funny. We hear that from a lot of midlifers, but I hear a lot of women say that throughout the marriage. We get to midlife and we can say, well, it’s just our hormones. I think a lot of times, the reason that we don’t want to have sex is more indicative of what’s going on in our relationship. I really do. Now, of course, we have physical problems, you can have a physical problem or medication you have to take that affects the bedroom. But a lot of times I think when there is not an intimate connection in the bedroom, there’s something underlying the relationship. What happens is women—here’s the stereotype—don’t want to have sex, men want to have sex all the time. And I don’t believe that’s true. I think that how women view sex and how men view sex are very different. And what women often don’t want to do is have to ask their husband to do something or not do something that they’re comfortable with or uncomfortable with. The reason we don’t talk in the bedroom is we don’t want to hurt their feelings. We’re embarrassed to ask for what we need. It’s too vulnerable. Maybe we’ve grown up in a home where you didn’t talk about sexual things, so we’re embarrassed. And we think our spouse should already know. I’ve been married to you for this long, you should already know. You’re just not a good lover. When couples could actually say, that really feels good to me. Or, you know, I know we’ve been doing this for a while, but I really don’t care for it. I know wives that will do things sexually they’re not even enjoying, but are not saying that to their spouse, and their spouse thinks that it’s OK, because they’ve not had this conversation. So it is about talking about those things, and being open and honest, so that we have this better connection. You cannot be silent about the bedroom. The couples don’t want to talk about it, they don’t want to feel inadequate, they don’t want to feel like they’re not good at it, they don’t want to hear about what they’re doing wrong. And the bottom line is, we have to learn each other and what works. So if you’ve not been honest about how you feel sexually, you’re not talking about what’s going on in the bedroom, you’re not talking about that you need touch outside of the bedroom, then chances are things aren’t going to change. And it’s real simple, but it’s hard. Talking about sex is hard, even for couples that have been married 25 and 30 years.
Maryann: Yeah. Deanna, what if sex is not the problem? What if you are, you know, doing it every night, what if you have a great sex life, and there are other issues? I could name a hundred possibilities. Is that a better place to be in or a worse place? I mean, do you see that a lot in midlife?
Deanna: I don’t think that you can just have the physical…Because I have seen that, a great physical connection and a terrible relationship. And usually, they’re not very happy couples. They’re happy in the bedroom, they’re happy with that chemistry, but a lot of times there may be an unhealthy relationship going on and they’re staying in it for that excitement in the physical connection. I believe we are body, mind and spirit, and our relationships have to be a combination of the body, mind and spirit. It can’t just be one thing or the other. There has to be a connection, a physical connection, a soul connection, a mental connection, an emotional connection. All of these intimacies are important. Now, does that mean that you have a good relationship and you’re having sex all the time? That does not mean that. I mean, having a sexual connection with your spouse may mean for you once a week or once every two weeks. It doesn’t matter, if you are having a sexual connection that is meeting the needs of both parties in the relationship.
Maryann: What are the most common problems, other than, you know, sex or intimacy? I mean, what do you see as a coach?
Deanna: A lot of times, it’s that people don’t know how to approach emotionally charged conversations, and they have developed some very poor patterns throughout the relationship when communicating their feelings. And instead of growing through conflict and conversations, it has a tendency to just put more of a barrier in the relationship and pull you further apart. That ability to communicate in a respectful, healthy manner about emotionally charged situations is a huge issue, because a lot of times I think when couples can’t have that kind of conversation and feel safe in it, then there’s going to be a butting of heads. And that’s going to translate into all areas. It’s like what I was talking about with sex and communication and relationship. I don’t think they can be synonymous. I think you have to have both. And that’s one of these. You have to be able to have these conversations that are difficult, but with respect. You have to learn how to say things so you are heard.
Maryann: And speaking of communication, you say there are a few things that you should never do when you’re fighting and communicating. Can you run us through a few of those?
Deanna: Yes, yes. The first one is criticism. Criticism basically attacks your partner’s character. Say your husband has a tendency to run late from work and doesn’t give you a call, and yet you’re preparing dinner. Your complaint is, you don’t call when you’re running late and I have dinner on the table, and it makes me feel like you don’t care about me. That would be the complaint. The criticism would be, you never think about how your behavior affects me. So you’ve taken the complaint, and now you have attacked the partner’s character. The other one is contempt. And contempt is when you treat others with disrespect, you mock them with sarcasm. That can be rolling your eyes, that could be huffing and puffing. Or you ridicule them—you have this moral superiority. And then the third one is defensiveness. Now defensiveness usually comes when somebody has approached you with criticism and contempt. You’re naturally going to become defensive. Now, you can approach somebody well and then still be defensive, but a lot of times if you come at somebody with criticism and contempt, you’re gonna get defensiveness. So that’s usually the dynamic I see in couples. One of them comes with criticism, contempt, the other one goes into defensiveness and starts making excuses, why you shouldn’t feel that way, why I feel this way, and this is the excuse for why I did that. And that defensiveness just shuts down hearing what your partner has to say and understanding it, because you’re defending yourself for why that person is wrong. The last one is stone-walling. Now, stone-walling is usually a response to contempt when somebody has mocked you or made fun of you or ridiculed you. It’s a total shutdown, just like a stone wall. It’s a total shutdown emotionally. That partner totally disengages, walks away, will not participate in the conversation. So basically, you’ve lost them. Now, all of those have to be absent in conflict, or else there’s going to be a problem. So it’s something I help couples learn, not to use those things. And interestingly enough, men are the ones that stone-wall the most. They check out, they back up, they’re gone. And I’ll tell you one of the reasons why. John Gottman of the Gottman Institute, he has done so much great work on relationships. He’s really great. He says that men actually become much more emotionally flooded in conflict than women do.
Maryann: I can believe that.
Deanna: Which makes sense, because we’re told we’re the emotional ones, that men really get overwhelmed and flooded by us a lot of times in communication. And I’ll tell you why this happens so much of the time. Think about it as women. We’ve thought about the issue. We’ve pondered it for days. We’ve gone through every case scenario or how it could work out in our head. We have imagined what he will say, what we will say, how it will go, how we will present our points. And then we show up to our husband and we’re like, wham, here you go. And our husbands are like, whoa, you know, wait a minute, I’ve not even had time to process all this and you’re coming with all this to me and I’m overwhelmed, I’m flooded. Especially if there’s criticism or contempt. So women have to really kind of think about what we’re bringing in and how we’re bringing into it. Men do too. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not just saying women. But men have to think about how they’re bringing up topics and how they’re speaking it, because that has everything to do with how something is going to come across and how it is received, whether the partner becomes defensive or stone-walls. We have to be careful of those things in conflict. And those are all from the John Gottman Institute. Those are the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. Now, those are not my ideas, so I just want to make sure I give him credit.
Maryann: Yeah, I know a woman who told me she stone-walled her husband, and I was mortified. I was like, no, you can’t do that. I think that’s one of the cruelest things you can do to someone. Maybe it’s because I’m a talker. I’m Italian-American. Like, to me, if someone stone-walled me, that would be the worst thing they could do. I would be out of there. [Laughs]
Deanna: I know. It’s really a control. I’m overwhelmed, so I’m going to shut you down. And you have to understand, too, it’s self-protective as well. Sometimes it’s just as a way for them to survive in an onslaught.
Maryann: [Laughs] Deanna, let’s talk about marriage and how it’s evolving as a cultural thing. I feel like marriage is increasingly coming under scrutiny. I think, generally speaking, a lot of millennials who were the kids of divorce have a very jaded view of it. Fewer of them are getting married than did in our generation. Many of them are having kids together before committing to one another legally. And I know several couples who have been together for more than a decade but never got married, and they seem very happy. Then—and we can do an entire episode on this—there’s this like resurging polyamory movement. So I want to know, what the hell is going on? And what would you say in defense of marriage in 2022?
Deanna: The times, they are a-changin’.
Maryann: [Laughs]
Deanna: No doubt about it. Things are very different. Well, when I think about being a young person today, I mean, you look at it, at the divorce statistics. Most married couples that you talk to are usually not going on and on about all the benefits of having a good marriage, they’re usually talking about everything you lose and everything that’s wrong, and how hard it is and how you just give it all up. Boy, you know, you hear people saying these things to people as they’re getting involved in a relationship—it’s over for you. I mean, the message married people are giving to those that are not married is not a positive message about the benefits of marriage.
Maryann: Right. It goes back to that table you were sitting around at the wedding too, right? It’s like, you’re embarking on this thing, and then someone’s telling you that in five years, you’re not gonna want to go near them, you know?
Deanna: Exactly. Well, I’ve heard married people say to a couple, do you know what you’re getting into? And I thought, oh, well, that’s positive…You just told them that your marriage stinks and they don’t need to be doing it. But we don’t talk about the benefits of marriage, and I think there are a lot of benefits of marriage. I was asked this the other day on another podcast. What are the benefits? The benefits are, you know…The memories and the time you spend with someone is something to cherish. And if you’ve been married through all these phases of our lives, I think we can forget all the really good moments in our marriages that have made it worthwhile, that have been beautiful. But if you’re always focusing on what’s not easy about it, what’s not right about it, then your view of marriage gets very jaded. There’s a lot of good in being married. You have someone to come home to. Even if you’re thinking, we’re not connecting when we come home, there’s still that opportunity to change. You still have someone that you’re in a relationship with, you’re sharing life moments with. In a good relationship, somebody you can share your body, soul and mind with, and know that it is a safe place. That’s why it’s so important to always provide your spouse with a safe, respectful place. I think it’s fun to think that we have been through not only the hard stuff, but the funny and fun things as well. There’s a rich history in being married to someone. And there’s also something about actually being married to me. And I know this is old school and there will be people that say, you’re just old school, and that’s why you think this, but I believe that when you get married and commit to somebody in that legal way, you’re investing even more of yourself in it. Really. Because I believe you’re putting it all in there. It’s not easy just to walk away. I’m committing to you, coming together with you for life. Here’s my commitment. Here’s what I’m willing to do. I think many couples that just live together and do that, it’s really easy to get out. Every young couple I know that’s doing that, they don’t…If they had been married to everybody they’ve lived with and called a divorced every time they’ve left, they would be married and divorced so many times, because it’s been so much easier for them to say, you know, it just doesn’t work.
Maryann: The couples I was talking about, they’re actually midlife couples. So they’re in their 40s and 50s and they’re not married, and they seem very happy. But neither of the couples I know has kids, so maybe that there’s a difference there. But I do remember reading somewhere, someone said that being married or in a long term partnership is like having someone who was a witness to your life. And I thought that was really beautiful. It’s so true.
Deanna: That is beautiful. That really is beautiful. I love the fact that my husband and I have loved each other through the difficulties. We’ve been there. You know, we’ve weathered. I’ve seen the most real parts of him, he’s seen the most real parts of me. You can’t say that about everybody, you know? That’s intimacy. That’s really a big deal.
Maryann: So what would you say to anyone out there who’s afraid of marriage, or is thinking of giving up, or is just a little jaded right now? What would you say?
Deanna: I would say if you’re feeling jaded, irritable, restless and discontent in your marriage, it is that red flag that says, you need to find a solution first. I think when people get to this point, they feel hopeless, and they see no way out. I always tell couples, always seek help before you throw in the towel. Because you may not be able to figure it out with the two of you. You may need a mediator, somebody to come in and help you through it. Don’t quit until you do everything in your power to make it work. Then you will know, if the relationship ends, I did my very best. I worked on it as hard as I could. I gave it my all. I looked for the solutions. And if it didn’t work, I’m OK with myself on that.
Maryann: So put in that call, and in the meantime, hug each other. Write some romantic texts. Do all those little things to see, you know…What’s the worst that can happen, right?
Deanna: I mean, just little things, like just saying to your spouse, you know what, you look great today. Yeah? Just little things like that, to be connected with your spouse and to show them you love them.
Maryann: Right. Well, Deanna, you’re amazing. I love the work that you’re doing. Tell everybody out there where they can get in touch with you and contact you.
Deanna: Sure. You can go to my website at reviveyourmidlifemarriage.com. And there you’ll see more about the program I have, which is a six month program for couples coming in, and you can see the different pillars we work through on that. You can listen to my podcast, Revived Your Midlife Marriage podcast, on any podcast app you can find. And then I’m on Instagram at @reviveyourmidlifemarriage as well. So you can find me at any of those on my website. If you’re interested in just having a conversation with me about my program, you have a free hour to just discuss. No sales call, just discuss where you are.
Maryann: Thank you so, so much for being here today. It was such a great conversation. Thank you.
Deanna: Thank you for having me.
