8. Why You Need Your Sister More Than Ever

8. Why You Need Your Sister More Than Ever

The following is a transcript of this episode. It has been edited for clarity.

Intro: Do you have a sister? If so, you know that this is one of life’s most interesting, complicated, unpredictable relationships. Today I chat with my very own sister, Nicole. And we get real about growing up together, how we remember childhood very differently, how motherhood changed our sisterly bond, why we once got into a crazy cat fight, and how much we now need each other like you probably need your sister more than ever. Welcome to More Beautiful, the podcast for women rewriting the midlife playbook. I’m Maryann LoRusso, and I invite you to join me and a guest each week as we strive for a life that’s more adventurous, more fulfilling, and more beautiful than ever before.

Maryann: Welcome to the More Beautiful podcast. I’m so happy to have you here today. And I’m so excited about our guest. It’s my little sister Nicole Stephon, coming all the way from Fairfield, Connecticut. Hey, Nicole.

Nicole: Hey there. How you doing? Thanks for having me.

Maryann: Oh, I love having you here. We’ve been having a lot of fun in San Francisco.

Nicole: Yeah, we certainly have lots of walking.

Maryann: Lots of walking.

Maryann: I dragged her around today, we did 11 miles.

Nicole: 11 miles, yeah, and we didn’t even complain. Too much.

Maryann: Yeah, too much. But Nicole is here today because we are going to talk about sibling relationships in midlife. And Nicole and I are probably…Would you say like we’re at the best point in our sisterly relationship.

Nicole: Yeah, I think so. We’ve had some ups and downs.

Maryann: We’ve had some catfights.

Nicole: Yeah. brutal fights.

Maryann: Some hair pulling, even, dare we say?

Nicole: So I think we’ve both matured, I think we both are in a good place.

Maryann: I would agree.

Nicole: Yeah, I think we have a great relationship now. Thank goodness.

Maryann: So maybe we should give all these guys some background about our family. So we grew up outside of New York in a suburb of New York in Long Island. And we…

Nicole: Strong island.

Maryann: What did you say?

Nicole: I said strong islands in the house.

Maryann: Long Island. And we had very lovely parents. We did not have a lot of money growing up, you know, but we had a really, really happy childhood. Unfortunately, our dad died when he was 46. So that was a hard time in our family. And we were close, growing up. But then, you know, I went away to college, and Nicole did her thing. She went to college, and we just sort of you know, we did her own thing for a while. And I think like, we didn’t really start bonding again until probably I got pregnant with my daughter, Ava. I remember you were there for me 100% when I was pregnant.

Nicole: I was. First child in the family, it was so much fun. I think also there’s a lot to be said for the fact that you are almost four years older. So I feel like there was a, you know, there was a real gap there with friends and all that other stuff, and I looked up to you a lot. So I think that was maybe part of the problem, but also part of the reason why we weren’t that close here and there. There are gaps, right? Don’t you think? But I loved when Ava was born. I remember wanting to just spend every second with her until I had my own kids. And then you broke my heart when you moved to California.

Maryann: Yeah, we relocated when Ava was 10 months. I still feel bad about that.

Nicole: Yeah, sure you do.

Maryann: Yeah. But you were a great babysitter. I remember you used to call Ava chicken nugget.

Nicole: She looked like a little chicken nugget. Then she graduated to chicken…What was it, chicken cutlet or chicken tenderloin, or something? Chicken tenders. Yeah.

Maryann: Yeah. But she loves you a lot. You guys probably have more in common than I have in common with her. Yeah, you guys are really tight.

Nicole: Yeah, that’s true. Same with you and my daughter.

Maryann: So then Nicole had a daughter. And then we both had sons. So we both have, you know, a boy and a girl. And although we live across the country from each other, I think that’s another thing that bonded us, just being moms. Right? Isn’t that like a big thing that bonds people?

Nicole: I think so. Yeah. Just complaining about our kids and our husbands and our lives.

Maryann: What do we have to complain about? What do you have to complain about?

Nicole: I’m kidding. No, I think it’s true. I actually think the fact that we do live across the country from each other has actually brought us closer, too.

Maryann: How so?

Nicole: Because when we do see each other…

Maryann: Because I can’t annoy you that often.

Nicole: That’s true. You said it, not me.

Maryann: But, we should say, our mom has had some health issues lately. And we’ve had to remove her from her house into assisted living, and that was tough. So we actually…The past year has been really hard. We’ve had to really rally with each other and really be there for each other. And you know, it’s been tough. Right? Wouldn’t you say it’s been a tough year?

Nicole: Yeah. I mean actually, with that you’ve been great, I have to say. You have been really, really supportive and wonderful, just being across the country and coming over to the east coast as long as you did, for a month. And helping me out when I was desperate and crying. That was really amazing, actually, really, really amazing. So, and yeah, we did bond through that whole process. And I think we needed to because it was really hard, dealing with mom and dealing with putting her you know, in a place for her to be safe. You know, going through her Alzheimer’s, and…

Maryann: Yeah, and then we had to sell our family home, which was really heartbreaking. I think, you know, also when you watch your family, kind of someone in your family, someone you love, lose their memory…Like, for me, it’s an eye opener. It’s like, well I don’t know if that’s gonna happen to me, you know, so I might as well enjoy this time I have with my family, you know, and, like, not take anything for granted. Do you feel that way?

Nicole: Of course, every second of the day. It scares me all the time.

Maryann: Yeah, but let’s talk about something upbeat. So what is the craziest thing that we did as kids? Can you think of something? I can’t…I’m trying to think.

Nicole: The craziest thing like?

Maryann: Yeah. Or the biggest fight we got into?

Nicole: Oh, yeah. I think the one that sticks out for me is the one when our dad passed away. We were really angry. We were really upset. We were really hurt. We were tired, because we had had family in and out of our house for days. And I don’t know, something upset you. Or upset me? I don’t know. We were fighting about something. We were ready to go to bed and we just literally just ripped each other apart. Yeah, we were fighting on the floor. And then mom came in to break us up. It was terrible.

Maryann: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think that was like pent up anger that he died. We had to vent. And of course, any of you who grew up in an Italian household, it’s like therapists weren’t a thing. God forbid you go to a therapist.

Nicole: No, you just beat each other until you feel better.

Maryann: That’s right. You beat each other and then you make a tray of lasagna.

Nicole: And eat some cannolis. So yeah, I think that’s probably the worst thing I can remember.

Maryann: Yeah, me too. I mean, you used to steal my clothes all the time.

Nicole: I don’t remember any of that.

Maryann: I remember I was going for my first job interview. I come home from college and I, I think I saved all the money I had to buy a suit. Do you remember that? You borrowed my suit?

Nicole: I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Maryann: You must have spilled red wine on it. And then I found the suit in the sink, soaking. It was just in a ball in the sink and it was ruined forever.

Nicole: I don’t really remember that at all. Are you being serious?

Maryann: Yes.

Nicole: Because I really don’t remember any of that. Why would I be wearing a suit?

Maryann: It was a cute suit. It

Nicole: Was I interviewing for a job?

Maryann: I think you were just going out and you were like, this is a cute little outfit.

Nicole: Yeah, well, listen. I needed an outfit.

Maryann: Now my daughter steals my clothes. That’s another reason why my daughter reminds me of you.

Nicole: Does she spill red wine on them?

Maryann: Not yet. That’s a whole other issue that’s to be dealt with. But Nicole, I want to ask you, like, do you think that sisters have a different kind of relationship in middle age? So we’re here to talk about middle age, unfortunately.

Nicole: I do. So I mean, so OK, so you and I both have a son and a daughter. And I don’t feel like they have…I feel like they have wonderful relationships. Personally, my kids, they do not fight the way we fought. And I think maybe it’s a boy girl dynamic. I don’t know. I don’t think that we were abnormal in any way. I just think, you know, female female is…it’s tough.

Maryann: Yeah, I would agree with that.

Nicole: And so I do think as you get older, you just…I mean, I think you need your sister as you get older. I mean, so me personally, because you’re a few years older than me, I rely on you to be straight with me about what’s the shit that’s gonna go down.

Maryann: Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, I mean, there’s no one like your sister—I mean, your mother too, but like your family members—to kind of relate to what’s happening to your body. Definitely, in middle age. Because we have the same genes, right? So it’s really helpful to compare notes with your sister.

Nicole: Right? I mean, everything you’ve told me scares me, but I also prepare myself for the worst.

Maryann: I’m sorry if I make it seem too bad.

Nicole: No, I mean, listen…

Maryann: But I am a role model. I mean, look at me.

Nicole: I know, you are the epitome of perfection.

Maryann: Exactly. As if.

Nicole: Yeah. No, it is true. I agree with you, 100%. I look to you to give me sound advice in our old…

Maryann: Sound or just kind of you know…a warning call.

Nicole: No, but you also are real with me. I mean, you never sugarcoat anything, you know? Like, this is what’s happening. You always tell me the worst case scenario and the best case scenario.

Maryann: Like a doctor. I know during our 11 mile walk today, we talked about, I would say, we talked about every topic under the sun. I mean, from you know, our kids, movies, fashion, perimenopause. I mean, we covered the gamut, you know? 11 miles is a long, long walk, and it’s really nice, because I feel like, you know, I feel like it’s like affirmation that what’s going on with her is going on with me, or, you know, I’m a little ahead of it, but it’s been really nice to hang with you this weekend.

Nicole: Yeah, me too.

Maryann: I mean, the thing with mom, too, is like, your mom, I guess, is your primary maternal figure. And when you don’t have that anymore, I think your sister is probably like the next best thing.

Nicole: Right, right. Have we ever had that really, though, with mom?

Maryann: That’s a good question. Oh, she’s getting heavy on me now. So I mean, we’re throwing everybody under the bus. Gosh, geez.

Nicole: You wanted me to be real with you. You wanted me to be on there.

Maryann: Well, I mean, we do talk about that, like, our mom was never, like, a super hands on mom. Or maybe, I think it’s a generational thing.

Nicole: Right. I agree with that.

Maryann: I think, you know, women of her generation did not discuss certain things. And so, you know, it was like, oh, you know, go read it in a book. Or go ask your teacher, or just avoid it. Yeah, we’re not going to talk about it.

Nicole: That’s a lot of people in that generation, I totally agree with you. So was never the best female role model to go to, but I think she did her best. And so it is great that we have each other because we can really, you know, relate to each other, I think.

Maryann: Yeah. I mean, the thing is, we also have a lot of girlfriends, we have a lot of friends that we talk to. So we’re kind of lucky in that way. Like we have, you know, a nice circle of friends. Do your girlfriends talk about all this stuff?

Nicole: Oh, yeah. All the time. I mean, you have to, I feel like you have to. Like if you can’t, if you can’t talk about this stuff with your girlfriends, there’s nobody else to talk to you about that. You got friends and your sister, right? I mean, you got to be real. I mean, we’re all going through the same stuff.

Maryann: What is the number one thing that you talk about with friends and family?

Nicole: Probably how much our teenagers are driving us crazy right now. Yeah, that we weren’t prepared for the amount of stress and BS that they’re giving us right now. You know what I mean? You’re going through the same thing, I mean, they avoid us.

Maryann: Shall we talk about teenagers, they’re very complicated. And we have good teenagers. We have great kids, I think. I think all four of them are amazing. Your kids, my kids, they’re sweet. You know, I have friends who are having much bigger difficulties with their teenagers. But even if you have like a really easy kid, I think it’s not easy having a teenager.

Nicole: Well, you go from this little dynamic of just, you know, cuddling in bed and reading books and having dinner together and them always wanting to be around you, to them, you know, locking their door and ignoring you when you’re calling them for dinner. It’s just, you know, it’s heartbreaking. They don’t really want to be around you. And you’re right. They’re great kids. They’re wonderful kids, all of them. They’re not doing anything wrong. It’s just, I wasn’t prepared for this stage.

Maryann: Nobody is. Because I think if you were prepared for it, you probably wouldn’t have children. If you thought about it.

Nicole: Oh, absolutely, 100% I would not have had kids.

Maryann: If I had a crystal ball when I was pregnant about what it was gonna be like when they were 15, I’d be really worried. But for me, it’s like, it was the eye rolling. It was the like, it was the, you know, oh mom, like…I told someone recently that having teenagers at times is like, you feel like such an ogre. They make you feel like you’re the least cool person on the planet.

Nicole: Right, that you’re not cool. And that you can never understand what they’re going through. Even though I tell them I’ve done everything you’re thinking and more, you have no idea.

Maryann: But we have no taste in music, we don’t know what we’re talking about with fashion, we don’t understand their issues with their friends, like it’s just, we couldn’t possibly relate.

Nicole: I really don’t like their music. I’m not gonna lie about that.

Maryann: Well, I don’t know what your kids listen to, because my kids don’t listen to, like, rap and really, I mean, they’re not listening to music that’s happening now.

Nicole: My son listens to…He actually has more of my ear for music. He listens to everything. He loves classic rock, he loves rap music, he loves r&b, he loves country. He loves everything under the sun. My daughter is, I mean, you know, she should have been an 80s kid. She likes Depeche Mode, she likes, you know, all 80s music. She listens to Madonna. She’s old school. Actually, I shouldn’t say I don’t like all their music. I like all of their music, I do. So yeah.

Maryann: Does Leah borrow your clothes?

Nicole: She does, yeah. This is funny, she borrows my clothes, and then keeps them.

Maryann: So what if you say to her, oh, that green jacket that’s hanging in your closet? That’s mine. What does she…

Nicole: Well I’ll just go take it. She’s like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Yeah, she’s a thief. So she basically is me when we were kids.

Maryann: So Ava, my daughter, is at Berkeley, and Nicole and I and her daughter Leah went into Berkeley to visit Ava. And a big thing for Leah right now is consignment shops. I love that about their generation, they want to, you know, wear used clothes. And so Leah, Leah has a really good sense of style. Like she’ll pick something up, she’s a good eye, and she will hone in on it and be like, I can make this work. I admire that.

Nicole: I actually admire it too. She has fun with it.

Maryann: It’s very cool. I love it. So my question is, like, what’s the next 20 years going to be like? You know, it’s just, it’s just mind-blowing…

Nicole: I don’t know, you have to tell me what the next three and a half are gonna be like, so why don’t you fill me in? And don’t make it depressing.

Maryann: I don’t know. But you know, we also have a really crappy family history. Like health-wise. So you know, we’ve got heart disease. We’ve got cancer. You name it, we’ve got it in the LoRusso family. So we are both, I should say, Nicole and I are both hyper diligent about our diet, our exercising, nutrition, all of it. And I think you kind of encouraged me. I feel like there’s at least somebody in our family that is doing the same thing and I’m like, keeping up with.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree, we both are. We’re doing everything we can. Hopefully it’s gonna pay off in the end. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, I also exercise and eat healthy because it makes me feel good. But I’m doing it also just to stick around so I can maybe see a grandchild. I doubt it, but I might.

Maryann: I’m not at that point yet where I’m like, waiting for grandchildren.

Nicole: I’m not waiting for grandchildren, but I just hope to see one. I hope to make it because according to them now, nobody’s having a kid.

Maryann: Oh, I know. I hear the same thing. Oh, I hate kids.

Nicole: Yeah, I hate kids, they’re disgusting.

Maryann: Who would want to have kids? My kids don’t even want to babysit.

Nicole: No, no. And I can’t blame them, to be honest with you. At that age, like, I didn’t want to be around anybody else’s snotty nose kids. Did you?

Maryann: I actually had a couple of kids I babysat for that I adored. We used to do arts and crafts and cooking projects and write stories, so I really liked it.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Well, you got lucky with that one. They aren’t all great.

Maryann: Oh, one thing we have to talk about is, so you know, we always talk about our kids, maybe, you know, because they have a little bit more than we did growing up, may not have the same kind of work ethic we did. Nicole and I had a paper route together.

Nicole: Oh, my gosh.

Maryann: I had one separately from Nicole, but then we had one together. And our dad was in on the act. We had to get up at like 5:30 in the morning, roll the paper, you know, all the sections of the Sunday paper, get on our little bicycles, like straight from Stranger Things, and then deliver the paper. I mean, was that not like an experience?

Nicole: I was like, that was the best time in my life. I mean, except for when we had to roll the paper and put them in the plastic bags at 5:45. But being on those bicycles in the early morning when, like, you know, like crisp fall and remember that, like it was so much fun. Our routes, the people we delivered to, they were so nice.

Maryann: My favorite part was collecting the cash.

Nicole: Yeah, that was good.

Maryann: Because, you know, there’s so many like, boys…Paper boys are a dime a dozen. But a paper girl, that was unique.

Nicole: Right. And we got tipped very well, very well.

Maryann: Very well, especially at the holidays.

Nicole: Yeah, they were good to paper girls.

Maryann: But people were, they were picky. Like, one woman wanted the paper inside the screen door. Another person wanted the paper never on the lawn, on the concrete, another…They all wanted something different. So we weren’t flinging papers or, you know, onto lawns. We were like getting off our bikes, putting the kickstand down, walking up. It was a lot of work.

Nicole: It was a lot of work for what we got paid. But you know what? Listen, you have to start somewhere.

Maryann: You have to start somewhere. We were scrappy.

Nicole: Our kids don’t have any idea of how hard we worked. No idea.

Maryann: So, I’m thinking we should go on a girls’ trip at some point. That would be fun.

Nicole: Oh, I think so too.

Maryann: Where would you go? What’s a good girls’ weekend?

Nicole: Everybody does Nashville. I don’t know. I think it’s overrated. I want to do Nashville, but I mean, not that much.

Maryann: You’ve just just insulted everybody out there who might be from Nashville.

Nicole: I’m not insulting Nashville, I’m just insulting the girls’ trip to Nashville. I feel like they make it a big deal.

Maryann: What’s your ideal…So, Charleston is a great city.

Nicole: Charleston is a great city, I’d do that. I mean, I would Nashville, I shouldn’t say that, I love the music scene.

Maryann: New Orleans?

Nicole: New Orleans. Yeah, I’ve never been. We’re actually planning a trip, though.

Maryann: If anything’s overrated. I think it’s Vegas.

Nicole: Vegas, yeah.

Maryann: I’m done with Vegas.

Nicole: Yeah, I’ve never liked Vegas.

Maryann: If there’s one place on earth that I’m getting too old for, it’s Vegas.

Nicole: I’ve never liked Vegas. I’m sorry.

Maryann: Good for you.

Nicole: I’m insulting all the people from Vegas, too.

Maryann: Palm Springs is fun…

Nicole: I would do that.

Maryann: What else? I don’t know…

Nicole: We could do Miami Beach.

Maryann: Oh, that’s fun. I would love to go to Miami beach.

Nicole: Yeah. I always enjoy going there.

Maryann: Do a little dancing, eat some good food…

Nicole: Try some salsa lessons.

Maryann: Oh, that sounds great. So, I didn’t tell you, I’ve been practicing salsa in my closet during COVID.

Nicole: Why are you doing it in the closet?

Maryann: Because I had a mirror here and I would just like to be able to see myself. I was watching YouTube videos.

Nicole: Well, that’s fun.

Maryann: Yeah, it’s really fun. But I’m awful. I’m awful. You can’t teach me to dance.

Nicole: I doubt that. Listen, we got some Italian moves. Listen, I have some moves. My husband can’t dance. But I have some moves.

Maryann: I have rhythm, but I can’t remember steps, like I’m not coordinated.

Nicole: Is that because you’re getting older? It’s just the memory thing?

Maryann: It might be, but that’s why I’m doing it. Because they say, try something new. You’ll always keep sharp.

Nicole: I liked that idea. I wanted to do dance lessons with my husband a few years ago. So he got me like the Fred Astaire dance. You know, I’m talking about…They have those veterans. Yes, they have places all over the place. So we got that. I mean, he was stepping all over my feet. I couldn’t take it, it was terrible.

Maryann: I hope Andy’s not listening.

Nicole: Listen, even if he’s listening, he knows he’s a bad dancer. He does. Like, he’s good at a lot of things. Dancing is not one of them.

Maryann: Oh, poor Andy. He’s a sweetheart. It’s okay, Andy, if you can’t dance, it’s fine.

Nicole: I might have to go back to the Fred Astaire studio and dance with that instructor.

Maryann: But now you gave me more motivation to learn how to do some Latin dance because if we’re going to go to Miami Beach, we got to know how to do that.

Nicole: Right. I mean, when I was younger, we went to Miami Beach for, like, spring break. And there were some guys there that taught us how to dance. Maybe we can learn there.

Maryann: Sounds great. I haven’t been to Miami Beach in years.

Nicole: I haven’t either. It’s a good time.

Maryann: It’s fun, yeah.

Nicole: All right. Let’s set it up.

Maryann: I’m not so happy with their governor right now. But you know, I shouldn’t get political.

Nicole: Don’t get political now. Let’s avoid talking about that. Or sex.

Maryann: Well, you brought up sex, I brought up politics. We just ruined…All of our prohibited topics have been…

Nicole: I was gonna say, everybody just logged off because we’re now talking about politics.

Maryann: Sorry, we love you Florida. We love you. We have family in Florida, we love you.

Nicole: We do, we have a lot of family in Florida. I love Florida.

Maryann: All right. So what else do people want to hear? We got you here.

Nicole: I know. What do you want to know? I’m an open book, you know that.

Maryann: I know.

Nicole: Maybe a little too open. I don’t think you want me to talk about half the stuff that…

Maryann: No, I want you to talk about whatever you want to talk about. Is there something on your mind?

Nicole: No, there’s nothing on my mind. But I mean, if you have something you want to chat about…

Maryann: I don’t know. I just…For me, I just, again, I’m going back to the last two years, not to make this a depressing conversation. But we went through so much, just like, I’ve been feeling so sad that there’s no family home to go back to, you know, since mom moved. We don’t have a father, our mom is now ill, our family home is gone, and it’s been a really sad time. And I would just love it if we could see each other more regularly.

Nicole: Well, you’re the one who left.

Maryann: I did. I’ve been reminded that every day for the past 20 years.

Nicole: Not to throw that into your face, but…I think a lot of people at our age, the people I talk to have the same concerns though. Like because we grew up in a big Italian family—you were talking about this on our walk—we had people coming over all the time, like an open door, you know? Our door was always like…People just came in like after dinner, people would bring out cake and sit in your living room, you know? We went to see our grandma like every Wednesday night, you know, like stop by for an hour. And I feel like with our kids, like, they don’t really have that, and they won’t know what that’s like. And it was amazing, right? Wasn’t it amazing? Just to see people constantly rolling through your house or just, you know, just chatting for an hour. And I think my kids would actually love that, you know?

Maryann: Yeah, it makes me sad that my kids don’t know what that feels like. To…Like, we had pretty much an open door policy, like family would stop by. There were, like, treats in the house at any given time, like an Entenmann’s cake. Do you remember Entenmann’s cake? They’re still like a New York, East Coast, staple. We had to have two Entenmann’s cakes in the house at any given time in case company came.

Nicole: That’s right. Well, like Sebastian Maniscalco is telling now. Yeah, I mean, company. No, seriously, like, nanny—or grandma. She always had a lemon cake on hand, all the time.

Maryann: A pound cake, yeah.

Nicole: Oh my god, the lemon pound cake. I love the lemon pancake. That and some tea. Yeah. So I mean, I guess the point I’m trying to make about, you know, company and family, is that, you know, you go from a huge fat Italian family, people constantly, you know, holidays were were massive, to these tiny little gatherings, like, my family is going to be alone for Christmas because we’re not getting together, because we’ve seen each other a few times this year.

Maryann: Well, come to us. Anytime.

Nicole: I mean, we would, but, it’s just…you know, but you know what I’m saying?

Maryann: Yeah, I do. I mean, so I visited Connecticut a few months ago. And Nicole was sweet enough to have a barbecue at our house, and we had one of our uncles come over. And he was reminding us of this time that, as I mentioned, our families didn’t have much money. This one time, our family got together with my mom’s sister’s family. He’s the husband in the family, this Uncle Bill, and the two families got together. And we did this road trip, and we ended up doing an overnight in a hotel, all eight of us in one hotel room. That would never happen nowadays. But we look back on that night and we say it was one of the most just hysterically fun nights of our lives. We had two people in a bed, two people in the other bed, somebody on the coffee table, somebody under the coffee table, somebody else on the dresser, and we literally stayed up the entire night laughing our asses off because it was so much fun.

Nicole: It was so much fun. We played games, I remember going to get ice like a million times, we had food delivery. It was so much fun. You just don’t have those memories anymore. Right? Like our kids are spoiled. We stay at nice hotels. They wouldn’t even know what a motel is. I will sometimes take a road trip, and I’ll be like, oh, we used to stay in those type of motels where they have you put a quarter in the side of the bed and the bed would shake. You remember that? Andy—my husband—and the kids would be like, what the hell are you talking about? Do you remember that? You remember that.

Maryann: Yes, yes.

Nicole: We were like, Dad, can we have a quarter? Because we want to shake the bed.

Maryann: That was the seediest kind of motel, I have to tell you.

Nicole: I know. I know. That’s our family. That’s what we did for road trips.

Maryann: Oh, that’s so funny.

Nicole: But we still have great memories about it. I can remember the bed shaking and the ice.

Maryann: But while we’re tripping down memory lane. I was telling my kids about pre-cell phone high school. Because, you know, they’ve got their phones, they’re hooked up, right? They got their cell phones, they got everything in their backpack. And I was telling them, you know, before cell phones came out, when we were in school, we couldn’t find a friend. We would call them at home. If no one answered or the mother answered the phone or the dad or whatever, they would say, oh well, when they’re home we’ll have them call you back. Or if nobody answered or someone’s on the phone, you get a busy signal. We would have to actually go find the person.

Nicole: Oh yeah, stop at their door or ring the doorbell.

Maryann: We’d have to go to their house. And my kids were like, what if they weren’t home? I’d be like, then you drive to the mall. Then you drive to high school, then you just go around town looking for them.

Nicole: Then came beepers, though, right? Remember that?

Maryann: That was pre-beeper.

Nicole: Pre-beeper. I actually know someone that still has their beeper.

Maryann: Oh, can you out them? Who has a beeper? Besides a doctor.

Nicole: No, I can’t out them. That’s just not right.

Maryann: OK. Now I’m gonna ask you when we get off this.

Nicole: I’ll tell you later.

Maryann: OK. Who out there has a beeper? I mean, seriously.

Nicole: And they’re not a drug dealer. No, no, I know, it’s surprising.

Maryann: All right, good. I don’t know. I wouldn’t want to go back, though.

Nicole: No, I wouldn’t want to go back either. Although we do have some fond memories, I don’t want to go back. I like technology.

Maryann: You love your shows.

Nicole: I like nice hotels, I’m not going to lie.

Maryann: Who’s spoiled? Come on, who’s the spoiled one? All right, tell everybody what you’re watching now? What’s your favorite show?

Nicole: Oh yeah, we were talking about this. I mean, I’m late to the game on Jane the Virgin, but I like it. It’s really cute.

Maryann: It sounds cute. I haven’t seen it.

Nicole: It’s light hearted. I mean, it’s one of those things where you can just come home from work and put it on, and grab a glass of wine or a cup of tea, and just zone out. You know what I mean? It’s easy watching.

Maryann: A little telenovela action.

Nicole: Yeah, it’s adorable. I like it. Well, there’s too much to watch. There’s too much. I mean, you give me too many options.

Maryann: Well, yeah. That’s the flip side of what it used to be like, because when we were growing up, we had like four channels, right?

Nicole: Well, we had more than that.

Maryann: We had three major networks. Everybody watched the same thing right at the same time, and if you were out, you didn’t get to watch the episode until the summer reruns. And now everybody has their own little private pod of entertainment.

Nicole: There’s pros and cons to that, though, don’t you think? There was something to be said for, like, you missed it, you missed it, and then you couldn’t talk to everybody at the watercooler the next day about what happened.

Maryann: Right? Like anyone our generation, Who Shot J.R., they know exactly what you’re talking about. Right? And today’s kids like, they’re watching…Everyone’s watching something else. Something different. Do they have a common culture? That’s the question.

Nicole: That is the question.

Maryann: I don’t know. I wouldn’t trade my childhood for the world, I guess that’s what I’m saying.

Nicole: I don’t know. I think they’re envious of our childhood, actually.

Maryann: Why do you say that?

Nicole: Well, I think my daughter is. She thinks the way we grew up…I mean, she’s so unusual, like—and I think a lot of the kids that today are this way—they…Well, maybe we were this way with our parents, too. Like, we wanted to go back to when they were young, right? Didn’t we have a little bit of a desire to, like, live in their era?

Maryann: I think so, yeah.

Nicole: I think my daughter is that way, she would love to go back to the 80s and live that way, and kind of…Like, she’s kind of anti technology, except if you took her phone away, she would try to kill you.

Maryann: She would, she would tackle you into the ground.

Nicole: She would.

Maryann: So, is there anything…I mean, if there are people out there who are having tough relationships with their siblings, what should they do? Like if they have a sister that they’re not talking to or getting along with? Like, I was trying to think like, what advice would I offer them? Like, I guess it depends on how fraught the relationship is, you know?

Nicole: Yeah. Well, I think it’s hard to say, because everybody has a different situation, depending on what your situation is with your sibling. But I think most times, there’s a resolution that can…You know, you can kind of get to the bottom of things and work things out. But every once in a while, there’s something that just kind of stops you from doing that.

Maryann: I mean, that’s kind of the great thing about being from a big Italian family. We’re very verbal. So I think like, if you and I ever had issues, we would end up hashing it out.

Nicole: We do, we put it all on the line. We talk about it. So that is a good thing, you know? I don’t know. But I think a lot of people have issues with their siblings.

Maryann: Yeah. I would say birth order is a very big deal. Like, we underestimate the whole birth order thing. Because Nicole and I always talk about how, like, being the first child, the middle child…You know, it really does have an effect on how you see your childhood. Like, I’ll say things to Nicola, like, do you remember? And she doesn’t remember.

Nicole: Or I’ll remember it completely differently, right?

Maryann: Right, exactly.

Nicole: And I think we talked about this before, but there was a therapist I was listening to years ago about how you can be in the same room as children, and have, you know, have the same scenario happen around you, with your parents maybe having an argument or whatever it may be, you know, just anything—family visiting, or whatever. And one child can be completely absorbed in that conversation, whereas the other child doesn’t even have any recollection of it, or sees it… You know, so you really do see things from different angles, right? And so it does affect you differently.

Maryann: I know as the oldest child, like, I think I had the more direct effects of our parents parenting. And then I like was this buffer between them and Nicole, but then, of course, I was a dumb kid. So, you know, Nicole got as much of me as our parents. So it’s really wacky when you grow up, like growing up in a certain order, because as Nicole said, you do see things completely differently and experience them completely differently.

Nicole: Right. Well, also first children are more pleasers. The second children really don’t care.

Maryann: Yeah. And I think everybody has to look at that a little bit and say, like, well, you know, how am I…How does how I was parented affect me now as a person? And kind of work through that. Because I realized late in life that I was like a perfectionist and a people pleaser, because I was always always told, watch, watch your sister, watch, you know, watch your brother, take care of things in the house while we go out, and, you know, you become this, like, little mommy. And it’s not healthy.

Nicole: No, and I think I’ve done that to my daughter a little bit, to be honest with you. You know, because you’re so close in age, only 18 months apart. A lot of the time I was so overwhelmed that I’m like, grab the diapers! Help me out, he’s crying. You know, you do that. You don’t even mean to do that, but you do it, you know? But yeah, and that’s why I think I’ve blocked a lot of things out of my childhood, too. Like you know you always say, like, you remember that? Remember that? I’m like, I don’t remember any of that.

Maryann: But I bet if you asked me if I remember things you remember, I wouldn’t. You brought up something today, a memory that I had no recollection of.

Nicole: Which one?

Maryann: I can’t remember now. See, I forgot it twice.

Nicole: You still can’t remember, yeah.

Maryann: I have to say, it is fun when we go out together and people always notice immediately that we’re sisters.

Nicole: Yeah, they always ask if we’re twins.

Maryann: It’s kind of cute. I like it now, as we’re getting older, because I think we’ll be the quirky old lady twins, right?

Nicole: You know, actually, it was funny. I was talking to Andy earlier today, just to see how everything was going at home. I was saying, we’re at lunch, and we were walking around and everybody’s like, oh, are you twins? You guys must be sisters. And he’s like, yeah, you guys are looking more alike as you get older.

Maryann: I know, I think so.

Nicole: And I’m like, is that so? He’s like, I think so, every time I see a photo of your sister I’m like, is that you? That’s funny.

Maryann: Yeah. Do you feel like your…I feel like my New York accent is coming back.

Nicole: What? How is that possible?

Maryann: I do. Like, you know, it’s not crazy, it’s not like the Long Island accent that we had in high school, that kind of thing. But we never really had that.

Nicole: I might’ve.

Maryann: But, I mean, well, when I moved to Chicago, like in journalism school, they wiped that out of me. It was like, no, you need to have the Midwestern broadcast news delivery, even though I didn’t major in broadcast news. They kind of made you, kind of…

Nicole: Really.

Maryann: Yeah. And so like, I remember coming home and dad being angry, because he would be like, pass the water. And he’d be like, it’s water. Water. Yeah, so you know, it just stuck. And then, like, once I hit 40, it was like, I’m starting to pronounce things like a New Yorker again. It’s crazy.

Nicole: I don’t hear that.

Maryann: You don’t hear it? Because I have people here telling me I sound like a New Yorker.

Nicole: That’s so interesting. Because even in Connecticut, people say, where are you from? Although if I go to the Midwest, they say you’re from New York, aren’t you? Yeah, they can still hear it. But I think I haven’t really lost the whole…Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t hear it in your voice, but…

Maryann: I kind of like it though, isn’t that crazy? Like I slip back into it a little bit more when I go to New York, too, because I just…It’s fun, you know?

Nicole: Well, that makes sense. Oh, my husband turns…His slang, his like Nebraska slang, comes out. Even when he’s talking on the phone with his parents, it comes out. It brings you back. We should just start talking like, you know, bada bing! We should start doing it, you know, just for fun.

Maryann: Bada bing! Forget about it. Oh, I just had a memory. I have to bring this up because it’s one of my funniest memories of us. Oh, gosh. So, around the year 2000, I was on a business trip and I was going to Portugal. So Nicole joined me. And we went to a fado bar—do you remember the fado bar?

Nicole: I do. That was so much fun.

Maryann: Fado is this Portuguese music, as you know, that’s just like this passionate, operatic, beautiful…Like, longing, singing, right? And we’re in a fado bar. And it’s this quiet, dark bar, and we didn’t realize fado bars…like, you have to be quiet in fado bars.

Nicole: Well, it didn’t help that we were drunk.

Maryann: We were a little tipsy.

Nicole: We had a bottle of wine.

Maryann: And we were just chatting, though, kind of like we are now. A little louder, maybe.

Nicole: A lot louder.

Maryann: A lot louder? OK.

Nicole: Yeah. Telling stories, laughing…

Maryann: See, we remember things completely differently.

Nicole: I remember laughing hysterically the whole time.

Maryann: So we were talking and we got in trouble.

Nicole: Oh, yeah. They shushed us. Told us to get out.

Maryann: Yeah. Now, if you’re at a fado bar, that is the worst thing that can happen to you. You get shushed.

Nicole: Yeah, but we laughed and then got out on the street.

Maryann: Then we got kicked out.

Nicole: We got out on the street and started drinking again. Yeah, it was fun. Good times.

Maryann: Good times. We did travel a little bit together, too. That was fun.

Nicole: Actually, that was some of the high points we had together. We did some traveling together. That was really fun.

Maryann: Yeah, I would highly recommend that. So we’re gonna plan our next girls’ trip for sure.

Nicole: Let’s do it.

Maryann: All right. And I’m going to work on you guys for Christmas.

Nicole: For Christmas?

Maryann: Yeah, I’m going to work on you, give me a few weeks. Andy’s not going to be happy, he wants to go to Nebraska.

Nicole: No, we’re not going anywhere.

Maryann: I know.

Nicole: We’re gonna be home.

Maryann: You want to stay home and snuggle by the fire.

Nicole: I do, that sounds nice.

Maryann: I have to be in San Francisco, because my daughter’s coming home.

Nicole: She’s coming home, I understand. Well, we’ll talk about it.

Maryann: We’ll talk. All right, last but not least, do you have any any advice for anybody out there?

Nicole: Any advice?

Maryann: Any advice about anything related to being a sibling or sister.

Nicole: I think you have to laugh a lot about everything. Don’t take anything too seriously. Right? Just have fun. Life is short, just enjoy.

Maryann: Life is so short, so just enjoy the person that kind of knows you better than anybody.

Nicole: That’s the thing. You know, some of the best laughs I have are with you. Because we have such fun history. I mean, only you know what I’m talking about most of the time if I tell a silly story, or…So that means a lot.

Maryann: Crazy relatives, you have the same background for better or worse, right?

Nicole: Same sense of humor, too.

Maryann: Same sense of humor, yeah, everything. And plus we’re the same size, so we can borrow each other’s clothing.

Nicole: Yeah, but you live across the country. I’m gonna take some stuff home with me, though. I’m looking around.

Maryann: Should we mention that we’re in my closet right now?

Nicole: I was just gonna say, you have more purses than anyone I’ve ever seen.

Maryann: So this podcast probably is not airing until…I don’t even know when it’s going to air. But this is the first one I’m actually recording. I don’t know what I’m doing. So I don’t have a studio. We are in my closet. We have squeezed two little chairs and a desk in here. And we’re sitting among all my clothes. So it’s kind of funny. That’s where we are, in the closet.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, she’s lucky she has a nice, big closet. So that we can actually fit in here.

Maryann: I finally got my dream closet at this age.

Nicole: Yeah, it’s really nice. I’m looking at your purses. I might take one of those home, too.

Maryann: Anything you want, babe. Just don’t soak it in the sink and ruin it.

Nicole: With wine? Yeah. I won’t do it.

Maryann: All right, honey. Thank you for coming, thank you for joining.

Nicole: This was so fun. We’ll continue talking over some wine later, too.

Maryann: Yes. We may do a part two next year, right?

Nicole: That sounds great.

Maryann: All right. Adios, guys. See you next time.