69. Use Your Midlife Advantage

The following is a transcript of this episode. It has been edited for clarity.

Teaser: Is there an advantage to being a woman over 40, 50, or beyond? Is there some magic that happens when you reach a certain age? Well, I absolutely think that and so does my next guest—a funny and amazing lady whose life work is to empower midlife women. Listen, neither of us is naive. We both acknowledge that there are some less than desirable side effects of aging. But we know for a fact that there’s also some pretty cool stuff that starts to happen to us that we never expected when we were younger. So if you want to find out what your midlife advantage is, and how to unleash it on the world, stick around.

Intro: Welcome to More Beautiful, the podcast for women rewriting the midlife playbook. I’m Maryann LoRusso, and I invite you to join me and a guest each week, as we strive for a life that’s more adventurous, more fulfilling, and more beautiful than ever before.

Maryann: Hi, everyone, my guest today is the lovely Holly Boxenhorn, a coach who helps empower women in midlife, and make the most of their next phase in life. Hey, Holly, welcome to the show.

Holly: Hi, Maryann, I am so psyched to be here.

Maryann: Well, I want to start Holly by just asking you to tell us briefly about what motivated you to become a life coach for women and what you find inspiring and about the work and why you’re so passionate about it?

Holly: Well, it’s kind of actually a funny story. I’m going to make it as short and sweet as possible. I was a former practicing psychotherapist. I transitioned into coaching almost close to 13 years ago, my intention was to go back as a practicing psychotherapist after I had my first child, but my nanny was stealing from me. She kind of put me on a forced hiatus, which she did me a huge service, because I didn’t want to leave my baby boy. So I just remained with the clients that I had until they eventually just aged out so to say. Meanwhile, my husband and I just kind of were juggling everything. I went to work at night until I could actually transition and then become a full time mom. When I got the itch to go back, my husband was the one who suggested to me, why don’t you check out this coaching thing? Now remember, 13 years ago, coaching wasn’t that big of a deal? Now it’s really big. So I’m like coaching? No, not me. I’m not gonna be a coach, I’m a therapist. And then I looked into a couple of coaching programs, and I found out more. And that’s how it happened. He planted the seed, I’d started looking into all different certification programs, and I landed on IPEC, which I find to be probably the Cadillac of certification programs out there very comprehensive, and it was great.

Maryann: So Holly, you and I both are trying to motivate women in this space out there. We’re not naive. We know what a shitshow midlife can be. And you told me in an earlier conversation that we had, that it’s so important to acknowledge that life can be a shitshow, right—before trying to see the rosy side of aging. Can you elaborate on that? How has your own life as a midlife woman been challenging? And how have your clients lives been challenging?

Holly: How has it not? That would be the question. But to get back to the first question, I think that if you whack-a-mole your emotions, you’re never really going to be able to address them properly, accurately or strategically. If we don’t recognize them, we don’t process them, we don’t get the opportunity to release them. It’s not possible. So I’m not a fan of toxic positivity. Of course, I am into positive mindset. I do think a positive mindset is huge. But at the same time, if we don’t really accept where we’re just not really feeling okay, then we’re never going to be able to manage ourselves and support ourselves properly.

Maryann: You did a really cute Instagram post on midlife curveballs recently. What are some of the curveballs or challenges that spring up on your clients? Like what challenging stuff is coming at them a mile a minute?

Holly: Oh gosh, well, I think— I mean, from empty nesting, there’s aging parents, which is a huge one. There’s also a lot of renegotiating relationships, whether that be intimate or peer relationships that once served us are no longer serving us. Or maybe we’re thinking about reconnecting with our husbands after our children left or maybe possibly divorced, or maybe we were widowed. You know, we’re losing people in our lives. And career transition is also huge, because we’re either nearing towards the end of our lives and we’re thinking I want more, I want either to do something different. I want to really step it up, or maybe I want to step back and start thinking about retirement. And then you got to throw in good old menopause on top of it and that’s brutal. There’s all that physical change that does a number on us. So you mix that into the equation, and that results in a bit of a shit show if I do say myself.

Maryann: A shit show sandwich. [laughter] Okay, so now now that we’ve covered all our bases on terms of the challenging stuff that’s happening, what about the good stuff? Because you say that all women over 40 have this thing you call a midlife advantage. Talk about that? Love it.

Holly: I firmly believe despite all the tumultuous that’s going on, it’s the most powerful time in our lives, to create what we want more of. We know so much more about ourselves. We can’t bullshit ourselves anymore, where once we believed if I get this under control and get that under control, at last, I’ll be happy. We know, that’s not the case. We know better at this point of our lives. We care so much less about what other people think. We’re also highly motivated by an “if now, when?” perspective, like this is it. Like, if I’m going to make shit happen, it’s going to have to happen now. Like, I can’t keep back burnering, myself, or my well being, whatever it might be.

Maryann: Okay, so I want to dive into how we can accomplish getting to that good place, digging into the magic, digging into our advantage. Sometimes it does feel easier said than done, right? If you go on social media, for example, you’re bombarded with so much information about what you should be doing, how you should be exercising, how you should be eating, not to mention all the scary diseases, the conditions that are just waiting for us once we hit menopause, or we turned 50, do you think it sometimes feels like too much? And how do we know what’s right for us? How do we take a balanced approach to staying healthy and well with everything that’s going on?

Holly: Yeah,I think this is where you have to do the deep dive, you have to really know who you are, what your values are. Because you are going to be bombarded. Just going on any social feed, you’re seeing so much coming your way. How do you weed through what’s going to be valuable for you and significant for you, and other things that just don’t align with how you want to show up? I mean, that’s how I landed on really meeting you, honestly, Maryann. I was so attracted to your feed, because it was so genuine, it was so real. And I just loved it. That is the kind of human being I want to surround myself with. Even though we’re across the country from each other. I want to make sure my feed is filled with that kind of stuff in my life.

Maryann: Likewise, I feel the same about what you’re doing. I should just tell all the listeners out there that Holly and I, we may be living on opposite coasts, but we’re both native New Yorkers.

Holly: That we are! New York accent, Long Island born and raised!

Maryann: Sorry, I interrupted you. So what what are the strategies? I mean, maybe we should start with something that I love that you talk about a lot is getting into that empowered, energetic state. You say you have to fill—I love this—you have to fill your personal gas tank with six influencers? Can you take us through those and tell us how we can use them to fill our tanks?

Holly: Sure. I mean, here’s the thing—and I think this is the other thing that we’ve learned in midlife, and I’ll piggyback on what I said, before—we’ve checked all the boxes, and we’ve gotten to a point in our life where we realize happiness probably really is an inside job. No matter how much you can secure your finances, your relationships, your own well being, it’s not going to necessarily create sustainable well being or happiness, right? Because life is so effing challenging. Life will always—no one is excused from it— throw you curveballs. I don’t care who you are. And in midlife, there’s a ton of them coming our way. So it’s really about learning how to manage your energy, so that when things are going well, you can leverage the hell out of it, and fly. When things are tough and a struggle, like most recently, my mother and putting her in assisted living with Alzheimer’s, how do I manage my energy, so I can get through this challenge more effectively? And not only more effectively, but grow from it—find opportunity, even in the tragedy of her diagnosis.

Maryann: Yeah, I’m so sorry about that diagnosis as Yeah, my mom has Alzheimer’s as well, and it’s it’s heartbreaking. It’s one of the toughest things I think you can go through as a daughter, as a child. So I’m really sorry that you’re dealing with that.

Holly: Thank you. I appreciate that. So my feeling is it’s about really understanding and knowing how to heal handle our energy. And this is really what I was trained in as an IPEC graduate, they talk about seven levels of energy. And when they say energy, they don’t necessarily mean fruitful energy, fluffiness. It’s tangible, concrete ways of thinking about our behavior, our patterns, our habits, and how we’re showing up in our perspectives in life. So this is really what we do a deep dive in. To expand on what you were saying about the gas tank, so it’s a great example, when you think of a gas tank—that’s your potential. What you put in the gas tank are the six influencers, the six influencers are spiritual, and I don’t mean religious, although they can be for some, it’s more about purpose, values, mission, all that stuff that’s changing up in midlife, our kids are leaving home, our roles are changing, what’s our bigger purpose in life? Right? Then there is our physical, which obviously, is also a big changer in our midlife. There is our emotional well being whether or not we are being more responsive opposed to reactive. There is our environment, which people really underestimate how significant our environmental influencer or impacts us, whether it’s related to work, home, or working remotely or working in a setting that is conducive to perform at our best. Or maybe it’s thinking about changing homes, because we’re retiring in midlife. There’s our social influencer huge in midlife also. Finally there’s our mental—I keep saying it’s huge— that’s our focus our concentration on memory, it’s our mental stimulation, our intellectual stimulation and growth. These six influencers is what fills up our gas tank. So let’s say one or two of those are being depleted from maybe our physical and our social, maybe we’re going through a divorce, so we just lost someone, clearly our energy is going to be impacted, it’s going to be really hard to show up as powerfully as you would if that wasn’t happening. So what we need to do is understand what is draining us so that we can remedy it. And also, we are going to lean into those influences that are working for us to help bridge the gap. So that we can make it through things a little bit more seamlessly and effectively.

Maryann: I want to go a little deeper into some of those. Before we do I just want to just examine that word energy that you pointed out. I think a lot of us when we think of energy, we think of, “Oh, my get up and go—do I have the energy to do it?” There’s also an energetic state, right? Like you said, how you show up in the world. And if you think about any interaction that you have with anybody in your life, you can be having lunch with a friend, you could be on the phone with someone, they are emitting an energy, and you can feel it. Someone else can feel your energy, just like you can feel someone else’s. And that’s all part of what you’re saying—how you’re showing up what you’re bringing into relationships, what you’re bringing into your job, what you’re bringing into anything you do. It’s so powerful, and many of us don’t realize that the power of this until we’re in midlife.

Holly: Yeah, and the power of even the energy levels, and what I’m sharing with you is so huge. I know, when I first started getting certified, and this was brought to me, I was like, holy moly. I was a therapist. This is a crazy, measurable tangible way to help people thrive and live to their potential. I drank the Kool Aid. I was like, “Wow, great stuff,” and I never turned back. And like you said, it’s not only great for helping you show up more effectively, it’s great for all those people around you, like our children, or our colleagues, or our partners. For example, I don’t know about you, but my kids can totally trigger me, whatever it might be, and they also can be triggered. When I can understand that they’re experiencing something that they need to go through, which is what I talk about anabolic and catabolic energy. I give them that opportunity to feel it, not jump in and coach them right away, and then help them understand what’s going on so that they can move towards more what we call anabolic energy, which is more positive, sustaining, supportive energy, whereas catabolic energy is draining, negative.

Maryann: That was gonna be my next question for you to distinguish those which you already did. Don’t you notice, Holly, that when your energy is off, it’s a little bit on the negative side, you show up at a party or something and you’re not getting the reactions you want. People aren’t gravitating towards you as they would normally, you can feel when you’re on, you can feel when you’re off. Like last night, I went to a birthday party, and I was in a good energetic state, and I feel like I made new friends, I had a great time. Whereas if it had been the other way, wouldn’t have been the same experience. Right?

Holly: Well, that’s the funny thing is that—people wonder, why do we show up differently one day to the next, when we have the same level of capabilities, the same talents, the same skill level, but this day, I knocked it out of the park [and another day] I didn’t. It’s because all energy levels are natural and normal, even when we experience catabolic energy. Energy is fluid. It’s just understanding that we might be in that area of catabolic energy, what we need to do with it to help shift us into more anabolic energy, if that makes sense.

Maryann: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so one of those influencers, you said is, it’s important to surround yourself with people that share that positivity, right? What if that’s hard to do? I know a lot of women that are having trouble making friends in midlife, we’re all kind of bitching and complaining about the same stuff. We’re all facing challenges, how do you ensure that the people around you are doing that for you? And what’s the difference between a good friend who’s having a bad day, and someone that just is draining, and you got to get them out of your life?

Holly: Yeah, there’s a couple of ways to go about this. I’m actually gonna be posting on this neck next week. I got certified in the science of happiness, and I love research based strategies. So there’s a lot of research that really gives us a checklist of what is a quality, supportive, meaningful relationship, what attributes are those, and you can go down this checklist. If you’re not checking off a lot of them, then this is someone who shouldn’t be on your list. Another analogy I also use with my clients is that, particularly when they’re working with me, and maybe they’re going through a challenge, and they walk away from certain conversations or gatherings feeling worse, because they were hoping maybe to get more support or something out of it. I share with people to start thinking about their friends in three categories: There’s your kitchen friends, those are the people who you keep near and dear, who you go to great lengths to go out of your way and reach out and have those conversations with and you can be yourself with the most. Then there are those people we keep out on the front stoop, which if cultivated, they might come into our kitchen, but you know, we’re figuring that out. And then there’s those people that we keep out on the street—more like acquaintences.

Maryann: Right.

Holly: That helps us navigate what I’m moving into. So I don’t set myself up for disappointment. You know, there are friendships that are constantly shifting and changing and some are ready to be terminated, and some are in between that. You have to have an understanding like, oh, well, maybe all I can expect from this relationship is like shits and giggles. I can’t really expect them to ask you know about me or what’s going on or be there for me. So it’s really categorizing that and again, it goes back to knowing who you are and what your values are, which is what we do a deep dive in with the spiritual influencer. These are the type of people who you want to be surrounding yourself with, people that are sharing the same value bases you and on the same page. It’s one of the reasons why I developed it like magic meetups, groups that I started developing. I wasn’t sure I could share my signature program in a group format. But I realized people, one, couldn’t afford private coaching and, two, time was an issue. Committing to coaching every week was a lot. So these midlife magic meetups gave people a forum to gain the knowledge that I’m able to share with them, while being amongst other women who are like minded and in the same situation and they’re sharing a completely different perspective, because they’re coming from another whole world.

Maryann: Okay, so we we address two of your six influencers, spiritual and social. There are still four more Can you briefly tell us what the environmental, physical, emotional and mental look like when they’re going well?

Holly: Yeah. So physical is our physical health. You know, we’re waking up and feeling at our best. Maybe we had a great night’s sleep. We got in a great workout. We’re not feeling sick or injured. All those variables will add into the physical influencer. You can wake up with a cold [and] suddenly now your energy is obviously being depleted, understandably, so you can show up the same way as you did, or you could be going through something much more chronic, like cancer or diabetes or anything on a more serious level. So that’s physical and the physical influencer is obviously is changing up big time as we age, right? We don’t have the luxury anymore to lean on our youth, as we did in the past. And now, more issues are coming up physically, typically. Then we have environmental, which I think we touched on a little bit when I said, along the lines of people underestimate the environmental influence on us. For example, what just happened to us now, we’re in a podcast interview and my dogs start barking. I’m all verklempt and I’m like, oh, no, what am I going to do? So it’s as simple as what environment is immediately around you, but it could be as big as where you’re living, where you’re working, how organized your space is, how beaten up your technology or furniture is—like what your surrounding yourself in is your environment. It could be the weather.

Maryann: It’s so important for me, I talked about this in a solo episode I did, but I gave some tips on how to like, make your environment more conducive to all this energy you’re talking about. I remember I had a bad job once when my boss put me in a cubicle, without exposure to the sun. I remember I was miserable. It has such an effect on my work performance and my mental state.

Holly: People really underestimate it. I have a great example of that as well. When I was doing a corporate gig, I was giving a workshop to a bunch of women and it was like it was all glass and right by the kitchen. So everyone would pass by and look in and smile. And I was like—hey, I can’t do this workshop with all these distractions. So it was that awareness. All I had to do was ask HR, can we get another room? I can’t be as effective as I like to be [with the environment set up this way]. So it’s these simple things, knowing what lights us up, and what doesn’t. I think it’s greatly underestimated that it really does affect how we show up, right? I really do.

Maryann: Okay, what did we miss? Did we cover mental?

Holly: Focus, concentration, memory, degree of intellectual stimulation, all which are very important as we age. Midlife women complain about how they’re losing their memory a little bit. There’s obviously fears around Alzheimer’s and things along those lines. It could be that your job is kinda “bleh,” like, you’ve been there done it, and you can do it with your eyes closed, and you’re feeling such a lack of energy, because it’s not creating enough stimulation for you. So at that point, it might be time to take on a new project, or figure out another way where you can bring in some more mental stimulation, maybe an outside kind of learning experience when you’re not working. So you can keep that fire still, that mental stimulation going. It could be also about making sure we unplug and we’re not distracted by all technology, right? All that focus and all that. It’s a lot. There’s a lot involved. And again, we do a deep dive in each of these, and it’s different for everybody. So everybody has to come up with their own recipe of what makes sense for them. We missed one other didn’t we—emotional? Yeah, I think that’s just really more about being responsive, as opposed to reactive. That’s really understanding where we’re being triggered. And most people are not really very savvy in that because it’s not anything ever were taught.

Maryann: Yeah, Holly, is there one of these influencers that could be like the quickest fix for women or something that they would see quick results, and if they just made one or two small changes right now?

Holly: I’m laughing because every influencer I go through I’m like, this one is REALLY important. This one’s really important. If I had to pinpoint one, I’m going to say your physical influencer.

Maryann: I knew you were gonna say that.

Holly: I am. I mean, it affects everything right? It affects our social relationships that we’re not physically feeling well. It affects our concentration, our mental, it affects our spiritual, our purpose. It affects everything. So if I had to pinpoint one, I’d really focus on the physical. Ideally, all of them are very equally important to really create what I like to say aging powerfully.

Maryann: And one thing I want to say about the physical and how it ties into everything else is—we talked earlier about the midlife shitshow and how things are coming at us a mile a minute and one of the things that happens is our health, right? The bloodwork may not come back perfect anymore, we may have high cholesterol, we may have prediabetes, we may be gaining weight where we don’t want it—all these things, and it starts to feel overwhelming, because it’s not just maybe one thing, it’s maybe three things. I think sometimes we want to shut down and not even deal with it, rather than go get the test, add more stress to your life. The other day I had a CAC test done because of heart disease in my family, I have five people in my family die of heart disease in their 40s. So yeah, that on top of the Alzheimer’s and diabetes. I knew I had to go for this test, I went for the test and took a week for the results. And in that week, I thought I was going to give myself a heart attack waiting to see if I’m going to have a heart attack. And it came back, okay, thank God, I had zero plaque in my arteries. But I wonder, women are saying, “Do I need to deal with the stress to make sure I’m okay?” So there is a little bit of stress, we kind of have to manage going forward in midlife to make sure we’re good physically right?

Holly: Yeah, and this is where the energy levels are really important. Of course, we’re going to feel those catabolic levels of energy, that level one, that feeling like a victim mentality, like, “Why is this happening to me?” Or two, I’m angry as all hell that I have to wait for a week to get my results?

Maryann: Or worry, not even anger,

Holly: It’s so important to acknowledge that, and to say to yourself, “Maryann, it’s completely understandable that you feel this way.” But here you are, doing something where we start to move into more of the anabolic level by getting the testing. Maybe we are not ready to go do the test, but maybe we can do some research. We could speak to some friends about what they’re experiencing. But it’s empowering ourselves to then show up for ourselves more, more effectively, more optimally. So it’s all that it’s acknowledging the suck. It does suck, let’s not minimize the suck. It’s so important, I hate that sugarcoating shit, I’m just not a fan of it. But I’m also not a fan and getting stuck in it and then not being able to move forward. So it’s acknowledging that yeah, this week is going to be tough. So what am I going to do? So Maryann, what are you going to do? You’re going to lean on your social influencers, those people that distract you and make you laugh and have a good time. Or you’re going to go out for a nature walk or something that fills you up environmentally, you’re going to lean into all these other influencers. So you can fill up the gas tank. It may not be at 100%, but at least it’s at 90%. And the truth is, is it ever at 100%? Unlikely. Your gas tank is usually never 100%.

Maryann: Amen to all that Holly! I will say I talked to myself, too. When this was going on, I was like, “It’s gonna be okay, babe, you’re fine.” Or my best is like, “It’s okay. Right now you are safe right now, no matter what happens tomorrow.” Try to be in the moment. And then you’re right, I will not hang out. I will not meet new people. When I’m feeling anxious, I will hang out with those tried and true friends that will get it. And I will tell them, “Look, I’m stressed right now. I’m waiting for test results.” So that they know that it’s on the table, and it’s support, right?

Holly: Yeah, it’s knowing that. It’s understanding and then knowing how to handle your energy. And that’s what it’s about. Because the suck and the curveballs are going to happen, especially in midlife, I am never going to be able to make that go away. No, coach, there is no magic bullet or silver bullet or magic pill. There isn’t. It doesn’t exist. You know, you come to me and eureka, everything will be great! In fact, most of the women, they often stick around with me. Maybe not on the consistent level they were but let’s face it, all of a sudden they get blindsided by another curveball, and they’re like Holly, can I just have a strategy call with you? At that point, I can jump on the phone with them. We can get busy, hopefully managing their energy levels about what they need to do. And they know that they have these tools in their tool belt to get through it.

Maryann: I know you’re waiting there with the catcher’s mitt. I saw you on Instagram with the catcher’s mitt!

Holly: That was a hysterical post. I was trying to make this happen and my dogs were attacking me, literally.

Maryann: Okay, so what are your seven energies and give us some energetic healing tips mixed in there.

Holly: So you have your first two levels which are considered catabolic energy level one and level two. Level one [catabolic energy] is more that—for me, sitting home eating bonbons, you feel like you are at the effect of everything. You’re not taking any responsibility. You’re not doing anything, right? Level two also catabolic in nature is more combative and conflictual and a lot of high level CEOs and former presidents actually behave that way.

Maryann: And Italians? [laughter]

Holly: —and Jews too, because I’m Jewish, I get it! [laughter] But that’s normal. That’s the point here, no energy level is wrong or right, they just are. It would be abnormal to experience a loss and not feel level one or two energy, it would be abnormal to not feel level one or two energy when your husband stands you up for the umpteenth time on the date that he was supposed to come through with after working and working and working, that would be abnormal, right? There’s a reason to feel that way. But staying there is not going to get us anywhere. So we want to move towards anabolic once we recognize it and appreciate it and process it, we want to start moving towards anabolic energy, which is level 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. As we go up the levels, obviously it gets increasingly more anabolic. So like level three is where we see the glass is half full. We start taking responsibility, but it’s a slippery slope. You can rationalize things to death. Things are good enough, it’s okay that he canceled on me for the umpteenth time. Is it really okay? You know, that kind of stuff. So it’s it’s level three is moving out of the anabolic. It’s the first level in the anabolic, but it’s a slippery slope because we can rationalize to death why it’s okay to settle for this, but it’s anabolic because we’re seeing the glass is half full.

Maryann: So if you want to get out of that rationalization state, are you risking getting into an even more negative energy before it goes up Again?

Holly: Not necessarily. Not once you’re astute in this. Sometimes I actually coach women into level two, which if you remember, level two is that angry, conflictual state. I want them to get so pissed off, that they’re willing to fight for themselves.

Maryann: Okay, this reminds me—did you see Nine Perfect Strangers with Nicole Kidman? Yes, I remember when she gets that woman to beat the crap out of that—what was it? What was she beating with a bat?

Holly: Oh, that’s right. That was a long time ago. That was COVID time.

Maryann: Yeah, it was like, basically, she needed this client to just express her anger and that was the only way she could do it.

Holly: I tell my clients when they’re feeling level one or two, okay, I’m giving you 30 minutes. Do you either, one, have a pity party, or go have a temper tantrum? Go take a pillow and beat a pillow. Do what you got to do. I’m gonna give you 30 minutes, and then let’s talk shop. Right? And let’s start moving up to those more anabolic levels. So three is great, because we want to see things as half—I mean, sometimes things aren’t great, but we want to see, well, this isn’t so bad. Sometimes we have to find that balance even when it’s not great. But we have to be careful not to settle. That’s the other slippery slope of it. That’s where the coaching comes in. Then level four is more anabolic in nature. It comes from a place of compassion, where we can step out of our own shoes, and really understand someone else’s circumstances and not get so pissed off and angry at people, when they really don’t rise to the occasion, or disappoint us. I’ll give you a great example actually that just came to mind. Your kids—you go to the utmost for them. You do this, you do that. And then they do something so obnoxious. And you’re like, “Are you kidding me?”

Maryann: I wouldn’t know anything about that. [laughter]

Holly: And then you slip back to one or two, because you’re like, “Are you kidding me? I did all this and you took yourself out of your own shoes.” But it’s anabolic in nature when we can treat ourselves as good as we do for others for ourselves. So again, another slippery slope. Level five is the sweet spot. It’s my favorite spot of them all as a place to reside. And that’s where the magic really happens. Actually, my weekly emails have all been on the energy levels.

Maryann: Okay, so if level five is sublime, then what happens at six and seven? Are you in like Willy Wonka’s elevator?

Holly: Just about. So six and seven are really reserved for the gods, or the people who—like Buddhists living in the mountains. Not for people who live like in New York, Long Island like I do, because it’s just too hard to sustain. But it’s doable. Like you can have moments, or longer moments of it once you get a handle on it. So like for example, working with you, I feel synergy, I feel great. I feel a sense of oneness. That’s level six.

Maryann: Whoa. We’re level six baby? Awesome!

Holly: I know you’re a runner, you go out for a run and you’re not thinking about anything. You’re just tuned into the sights and the smells and everything and everything is one everything is cool. Everything is green. That’s six and seven. Now does that last? I don’t think it’s realistic. I know a few people, three, who reside in level six and seven for a large part of their time, and I have to be honest with you, it’s hard to relate to them.

Maryann: Really why?

Holly: Because I don’t really feel it’s realistic. Like, you turn on the news, and you’re bombarded with horrible news. And like, it’s just—

Maryann: So how are they doing it, though? I mean, what’s their secret?

Holly: That’s a good question. I don’t know. I could I say that maybe one day, I’ll be more in sixth and seventh after practicing is for a longer period of time? I don’t ever really want to be that way. I feel like I’ll be detached. But even some of the conversations I’ve had with people in sixth and seventh, it feels like they’re almost flat.

Maryann: It’s like when you reach Nirvana, right? You’re supposed to be it’s supposed to be detached?

Holly: Exactly. Everything is an illusion, right? Everything’s an illusion, that’s level seven.

Maryann: And also, if you’re always at a level seven, or even a six, then you can’t appreciate when you are feeling that,

Holly: I think so. That’s my feeling. I don’t know if every coach would say the same. For me, it’s all about level five, the sweet spot. And not only because it’s such a great place to exist most times, but it’s doable. It’s doable for everybody, once you begin to understand your energy levels, and all my coaching programs start with an assessment. This is where you learn about where your energy levels are residing at this current moment.

Maryann: Okay, so for the listeners out there who are hearing all this, and they’re like, I want me some of level five or six—is there a way to gauge where you are on the scale and or to coach yourself to the next level?

Holly: Yeah, there is. I mean, it takes time, it takes practice, even when I was first introduced to it, coming from a therapy background, when this was introduced to me, I had to kind of live and breathe the the energy levels. So when you go through an assessment, they give you this chart that outlines and each level, and it looks like a bullseye. I used to pin it to everywhere I was in every room. It was always a visual reminder of saying, okay, Holly, so where are you at energetically right now, at this moment? You know, like, am I gripping the steering wheel, because I’m rushing or I’m in traffic, or am I singing a song and I’m feeling good. So you have to practice and be comfortable, to get knowledge about it, then you can start learning more about where you’re at any time of the day, then you get savvy enough to start shifting and changing.

Maryann: I know our readers or listeners out there can’t get the full effects of your program just from this one episode. I encourage them to check out your website for that. I just like to help people in the moment. Say someone right now was in their car, right listening to this, or at home, and like you said, the dogs are barking, the kids are driving them nuts and they know they’re not at a great energy level. And they just want to improve it a little bit like Is it just what would you be your suggestion for just one thing you could do right now just to like, kick it up a notch?

Holly: I would hit pause, I would stop. I would step back just for a moment if we can, even if you have to physically remove yourself from the situation and say how much of what’s going on is really something that I need to worry about that needs to be addressed now? And how much am I just becoming emotionally hijacked by?

Maryann: Yes.

Holly: Yeah. So that’s where we hit pause, we stop, we say, what’s really going on here? Is this something that needs my immediate attention? You know, what can I do to support myself so I can maybe be much more responsive rather than reactive. Sometimes it is physically removing ourselves. Sometimes it’s breathing, deep breathing. It could be sometimes I gotta go for a run.

Maryann: I go for a walk, I just literally walk out the door.

Holly: Yeah. That’s the whole point. So what happens is, as we do a deep dive on each of the influencers, you’re going to come up with your own recipe of success for each of these influencers, knowing what you need to do for yourself, and each of these influencers to help leverage and maximize them. So it becomes your secret sauce.

Maryann: I love it. Okay, this was so great. That was so great. I love that we’re all becoming more aware of this and it’s so important. I want to switch gears a little bit to gratitude because you talk about gratitude a lot and the fact that we all can have a gratitude practice, and it’s a great thing, but some women can go overboard on the gratitude, right? Or it can backfire on us. I love this. Tell us more about this and how women can sabotage themselves.

Holly: Yeah, this is where level three shows up, where we rationalize that things are good enough. You know, I’m making enough money so like, I’m not happy or I’m retiring and five years from now anyway, I’ll just suck it up. You know, even though my husband and I aren’t really intimate anymore, it’s good enough. It’s that kind of stuff.

Maryann: Oh my god, he just made me think of my grandmother who used to say to people. I heard her telling her friend once, “Is he beating you? No. Is he an alcoholic? No. Oh, you’re in a good marriage.”

Holly: Right. So sometimes I think gratitude is a superpower. Because the truth is, is that it squashes negativity dead in its tracks. The mind can’t think of two things at once. So if you are shining the light on something that you feel appreciative of, it’s very hard to feel negative. So I do believe it’s a superpower. But when we use them ad nauseam, we avoid the hard conversations that we need to have. We would sell ourselves short and allow ourselves to suck it up for five years until we retire. That type of thing. So that’s where the overuse of gratitude can just bite us in the face.

Maryann: So don’t use gratitude as an excuse, use it when you’re actually truly, truly feeling it.

Holly: Yeah, and if you’re finding yourself like just sugarcoating everything day after day after day after day, something’s got to change. We can’t just use gratitude. I like I said, it’s great in the short term to help remedy some negativity. But in the long term, we need to take a step back and say, at what point am I just minimizing some of the things that I really want more of in my life?

Maryann: And that brings me to my next question, which is sort of a statement more than a question. But when I was younger, I thought that I’d have it all figured out by now. And that’s something that a lot of us do picture for ourselves when we’re young. But then all these things we talked about happen, or we’re still figuring it out, or we’re switching careers, or we’re in some other kind of transition. But I believe that’s what keeps us kind of young, the fact that we are still works in progress, what are your thoughts on that?

Holly: Well, that’s the beautiful thing, because you’re flipping the script, immediately, you’re seeing the advantage of it, which is fantastic. But if you in fact, don’t take a look and take a step back and see the advantage that comes with the tumultuous that comes, because it allows you then to have to reprioritize your life. You almost don’t have a choice, because you’re thrown in the deep end of the pool, so to say, with all this change that’s going on, and this is a sink or swim, right? Most of us are not going to be willingly just [choose to] sink. So we want to swim. And so we then have to then think about, what is the advantage in all of this? How is it that I can shift this to work to my advantage? And see that this could actually be the best part of my life—that second half of my life could be even better, deeper, richer adult relationships, because I know myself better than ever, I know more than what I want, and I don’t really care what other people think or checking the boxes or any of that anymore. So I think that that’s where we can shift gears and start to see that it’s a normal part of the process to have questions. It’s also one of the biggest myths, Maryann, that people think by now they should have all the answers, right? Why? First of all, the roadmap has stopped. We had a roadmap, you go through puberty, you go to college, maybe you’re married, maybe have children, you have a job, suddenly the roadmap comes to a screeching halt. So we don’t have that anymore. Then secondly, everything is turning upside down. Of course, you’re questioning everything right now. And you know what, that’s a sign of growth. That’s a sign that you are wondering what else is there? I hope to God, you have more questions than you do have answers at this stage of your life, because that means you’re willing to grow.

Maryann: 100%. And you know, I think that when we were growing up too, and I hate this term midlife crisis, we thought that if anybody changed anything, they were having a midlife crisis. It’s like, you get to the age of 40, and what? Suddenly you don’t ever change? You never do anything new? You can’t even switch your car without being dubbed someone having a midlife crisis? I tell my kids, don’t rush life, because you can change it up when you’re 40, 50, 60. Just don’t rush.

Holly: You wish you could give them that crystal ball that we had. We now know so much better that things do have a way of working themselves out. Sometimes it’s painful, but we get on the other side of it inevitably. We haven’t gotten here for no reason at all. We obviously we figure things out. The other part of it is like I said, I think we blame ourselves for not having all the answers because society seems to prescribe that we’re supposed to. Like all the bullshit you see on Instagram or Facebook that everyone’s got it together. Let me tell you this man on the fly on many women’s walls. Trust me, we don’t have it all together. No one has it all together and nor should you! How could you? If you’re evolving and changing, how are you supposed to have all the answers? You have to give ourselves grace and honor and be excited about the fact that, yeah, this could be an opportunity for growth, rather than, “Oh, my God, it’s all downhill from here.”

Maryann: Right. Okay, I kind of want to end this conversation where it’s so uplifting. But I have one more question and it’s about ageism. I’m just curious if your clients come to you and are telling you this is happening at work because of ageism, or I can’t get a date because of ageism, or, you know, all those things. Do you think ageism is real, or how real is it? And does it come into play? And how can we make ourselves immune to that whole topic of BS?

Holly: Well, this is where mindset comes in big time, right? Big time. We know many women who are kicking ass in midlife, better than ever. There are those who are maybe struggling, like you said. I think that this is where we’ve got to lean into our advantages. Honestly, let’s not fool ourselves, every decade comes with its challenges. So, of course, the 50s and 60s are gonna come with challenges. But it also comes with a lot of good stuff, too. And it’s where we’re going to point our direction towards? What is our perspective going to be? Are we going to shine the light on the advantages, or the disadvantages? Now, here’s what I’m saying. I’m not saying not to acknowledge the disadvantages, because if you don’t, then you can’t manage them. Right? We want to shine the light on the advantages, and there are so many in midlife. And with ageism—it exists. Do I think it’s getting better? I’d like to say yes, but I don’t know if it’s that I’m getting better with accepting my age. So I don’t feel it as much. I do think you’re seeing it more on magazine covers, and celebrities stepping out. But I don’t know if it’s again, my mindset that I am choosing to see the gift in aging. Or if things are really changing, I guess I have to say they are. I mean, they are in some level. It’s really a choice, it becomes a choice. I understand it’s not easy. And again, this is where the energy levels come into play. I could choose to stay in level one or two, or I could see the opportunity and what this brings me. I’m gonna live the second half of my life no matter what, but I want to make it good. I want to make a great, what do I want to do? Yeah, I want to make a great, so I’m gonna do what it takes to make that happen. That means yes, accepting some of the yuckiness that comes with it. But that doesn’t mean settling for it. This is not my end destination.

Maryann: Well, I do think ageism is real. I agree with you. But I also think that now we have the ability more so than ever because of the internet and whatnot to put our voices out there. Whereas before we had like a gatekeeper, the patriarchy, telling us you’re too old—get out of here, you know? I am remembering my parents, every morning watching Regis and Kathie Lee together, and if you think about that, you always had the middle aged man and the very young woman. It was always a young woman with an older guy, right? I feel like we have a platform now many, many women are doing things. They’re putting themselves out there. That’s exciting to me. I love that.

Holly: I am excited too. I love being a coach for midlife women because it’s like a complete win-win. I am a midlife woman. So being around women who want more for themselves really inspires the shit out of me. So that’s where it comes with surrounding ourselves with knowledge and people who are aging powerfully. Not perfectly, but powerfully. That rubs off on you and it’s exciting about the possibilities that are ahead. It’s wonderful to collaborate and be amongst other women who are like-minded. That’s why I’m so thrilled that we had this opportunity to have a conversation.

Maryann: I am too and thank you Holly for everything that you do and for all your inspiration and all the work you’re doing in the midlife space. We’re so lucky to have you out here. Tell us where everybody can find you online.

Holly: You can find me on Instagram which I’m actually @boxenhornholly—backwards on Instagram. You can find me on Facebook too, but I would just go with Instagram and then my website is super simple hollyboxenhorn.com and you’ll get onto my website and everything is there.

Maryann: Holly, thank you so much for joining us today was such a pleasure.

Holly: My pleasure.

Outro: Thank you so much for tuning into More Beautiful. Please visit MoreBeautifulProject.com for show notes and bonus content. And it would mean so much if you could subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you’re listening. Together, let’s continue to change the conversation around aging.