The following is a transcript of this episode. It has been edited for clarity.
Teaser: I am so looking forward to this next conversation with one funny, savvy woman who shares my mission. I will be dishing with her about fashion journalism, the out-of-whack beauty standards that our generation grew up with, how social media is making space for women over 40 to be the new fashion mentor, and why there are so many advantages to being a late bloomer. This is going to be a fun conversation, so stick around.
Intro: Welcome to More Beautiful, the podcast for women rewriting the midlife playbook. I’m Maryann LoRusso, and I invite you to join me and a guest each week, as we strive for a life that’s more adventurous, more fulfilling, and more beautiful than ever before.
Maryann: Welcome back to the More Beautiful Podcast. My guest today is the lovely Christine Morrison, journalist and author of The Substack newsletter Writing in Black and White. Christine has spent more than a decade writing about fashion, beauty and wellness—a woman after my own heart—and prior to that she was a marketing executive who worked for some legendary brands, including Calvin Klein. So we have so much fun stuff to chat about. Christine, it’s a joy to have you here. I can’t tell you how much I’ve been looking forward to this conversation.
Christine: Me too. Thank you so much for having me.
Maryann: Let’s start with your fantastic substack, which you say explores the gray areas of fashion, beauty and wellness through the lens of aging. I can relate to that so much. Tell us about your newsletter, and what prompted you to start it.
Christine: Well, coincidentally, you and I talked a few minutes offline about our background. We both went to journalism school. And when I was in J school at Chapel Hill, I was considering being a reporter and everything was very black and white. And I was always wanting to add a little more color into the content. And I would always get redline marks back in all of my papers. And I thought, you know, I need to go more toward the creative side. So I went the advertising/marketing route, cut to you know, 35 years later, I’m writing a little bit for some online publications. And I’m finding Instagram, I’m building up a readership or following, which I need very much to do. And I’m pitching a book, which I know we’ll talk about. When Substack came my way, I realized it was a way to move away from the algorithm and the world of influencers where I was, as a small writer, getting lost. I wanted to be able to get out there with the things that I continue to say, this whole writing in black and white experience of my branding, which is more about getting to the heart of what’s happening and beauty and fashion and wellness, without all of the gray areas, all the things that make it cluttered. I get to the heart of it. And so it just goes back to my journalism roots. And I love doing it through the lens of aging, because at 54, and having been in the beauty and the fashion world a for a significant amount of time, it definitely taints or puts a new perspective on how you look at the categories.
Maryann: Absolutely, yeah. And we’re the same age, by the way. And I love that you are kind of reinventing yourself now at this stage in life. Which reminds me that you wrote a fantastic column on Late Bloomers because you became a mom later in life, right? How old were you when you became a mom?
Christine: 40. And nowadays, it’s like more and more women are delivering babies later. I am definitely the oldest mother in the middle school because I have 13-year-old twins. But I didn’t get married until I was 39. And that’s when people start to raise their eyebrows. Oh, really? Were you married before? No. I just waited. I was very selfish and very focused on my career and I was always taking classes at Parsons and the New School for writing because at the time, breaking into women’s magazines was a lot about the personal essay. I would always take classes because I thought, I don’t know if this is something I’m going to ultimately be able to break into. But I always wanted to have writing be some a side hustle or a side hobby, because I loved it so much. And I did write some at Calvin, but it was never enough to scratch the itch that I had going on.
Maryann: I need a notebook right here because I have to take notes on everything you’re saying—I want to address every single thing you’re saying, because it’s something I can relate to. I took some classes at New School in my 30s when I was pregnant with my daughter. And also regarding the age thing, Gina Davis was 50 when she had her babies, so you’re right, it’s changing.
Christine: Remember when women over 35 were told, this is a geriatric pregnancy? I was very weird for me, because I had just come back from my honeymoon, and I was training for the Boston Marathon. And I was getting sick a lot. And everyone’s like, Oh, it’s what you’re…eating on the training runs…Well, I was pregnant with three babies.
Maryann: Oh wow.
Christine: Whenever I plan something…whenever I make a significant plan and say, this is how it’s gonna happen, something happens. And it’s always what’s supposed to happen in your life. Because we weren’t even sure we…we were having babies. Well, haha, you’re having babies.
Maryann: What’s that phrase? Life is what happens when you’re making plans?
Christine: That’s exactly how I feel is my life. And I think a lot of people’s lives. And so when you’re talking about this pivot, I mean, I didn’t start really freelance writing until I was 40. And then pitching a book as a first-time author at 54. Some people have said, Oh, are you nervous? What do I have to be afraid of? You know, all they can do is say no. And a lot of them do say no.
Maryann: Well, that’s something that I think you’re better at as you get older, having that tough skin. Because—and I’ve talked about this on a couple of people’s podcasts—years ago, when I was in my early 30s, I wrote a children’s book, it was one of those classes I took at New School, and my teacher went so far as saying, “I love this, here’s the name of my editor, just email her directly.” And I got a letter back, a nice rejection. It was like, “We don’t have room for this in our roster now…” And you know what I did? I stuck that letter in a drawer, and I haven’t touched it since. But now I’m at this new phase of my life, where I’m just like, you know what, you’ve got to fail over and over and over again to get somewhere.
Christine: Absolutely. People have been actually very, very nice. The rejections have been fantastic. And the main thing that’s challenging for my book is that it because it’s an essay collection, they have said, the hardest thing to sell. And I do actually have a second book idea, but I’m like, one book at a time here.
Maryann: I have the same book that I’m working on. And you know what, it’s OK. Because it will get through the clutter.
Christine: And I think the more I plan, the more it will fall apart. So I don’t plan a whole lot on the book front. I have people around me who say it’s like, you just haven’t found your person. And I mean, again, I’m a late bloomer. I got married late, I became a mother late. I’m going to be an author late, and that’s all good.
Maryann: It’s all good. What do you think are some of the other benefits to being a late bloomer?
Christine: Oh, well, one of the things when people meet me, they’re always think that I tend to have an optimistic point of view. Because I just tend to go with the flow, because I have a young spirit, because I was able to play a lot. I didn’t burden myself too much in my 20s. People were like, Oh, I’m getting married, and I’m going to have kids and I’m like, I’m learning to rollerblade. You know, it’s great. I think it may seem like I fail a lot, but it’s because I’m trying a lot. And so I just go for things. And I don’t make it to that next level—motherhood, house, car, whatever—until later than some other people. But I get there. And I sort of feel like I have a freedom along the way to have fun and fail, right?
Maryann: If you’re not failing, you’re not trying enough. I say this a lot, but in my kids school, when they were in preschool or kindergarten, there was a big sign on the wall and it said, Let’s make lots of mistakes this year. And I always thought, wow, that is so cool. Like why didn’t our generation get that memo? Right?
Christine: Great. I agree. And you know, there are so many cool women, and men, who we always learn about later on about, like Julia Child and Vera Wang, who really did something later in life really became who they are today after the age of 40, or after the age of 50. And I just look at those people and I say, it’s worked great.
Maryann: Yeah. You know, I did a profile on Vera Wang back in the late 90s. Maybe it was 2000. But when I met her, I didn’t realize she was in her 50s. She was so youthful. And I think she was the first woman in midlife that I said, wow, like, you could really still be kicking ass.
Christine: Even if you look at her now—she’s in her 70s I believe, right—and you look at her business, she’s brewing ideas. I just listened to a podcast with Diane Von Furstenberg. And it’s the way they talk about the future, instead of it seeming like I’m wrapping things up, right? It’s sort of like, I have new ideas or it’s just, it’s just a different mindset.
Maryann: Yeah, I agree. 100 percent. My mother in law is 93 and she’s still generating ideas and still doing her art, which is a ikebana. It’s incredible. But speaking of fashion, you and I both worked in that crazy industry, but on the flip sides; I was a magazine journalist and you were on the marketing side, and later you became a writer. By the way, were you at Calvin Klein during the whole “nothing gets between me and my Calvins” days?
Christine: Wouldn’t that have been amazing No, I got there as Natalia Vodianova got there; she was in the Euphoria [fragrance] ads and she became the front walker. I was not there for Brooke. Nor was I there for Kate Moss. The Kate Moss era would have been my favorite because she is one of the reasons I really wanted to go to Calvin in general. I’ve always been such a huge fan of, well number one his work, but I’ve just always loved Kate Moss; I still have a picture a signed picture of her in my closet. But I got there as Phillips Van Heusen bought the company from Calvin. So Calvin was on his way out the door. And so it was really important that his brand stewardship was upheld. I mean, he is who he is because of what he does, what he says, how things look. And there are a lot of rules. And so it was really cool to kind of keep his legacy alive in that way. I was working on fragrance and developing their third attempt at a cosmetic line. And then I got to work on ready-to-wear out of Asia. It was a sort of a bridge line up against things like Tory Burch, so that bridge level. But it was out of Asia. And so it was really cool. I had a lot to learn when I got there. But it was a spectacular experience.
Maryann: I can imagine. And you know, I’m sure at some point in the ‘90s we met at a fashion industry event…
Christine: I feel like we had to have crossed paths.
Maryann: …or we chatted about a press release or something.
Christine: I feel like that.
Maryann: Yes. Looking back at that time, particularly in the ’90s are the days of heroin chic and all that, it was pretty glamorous. Do you miss those days? Certainly there were downsides to taht era, and we’re gonna talk about that. But what is your overall recollection?
Christine: So we both graduated from college in ’91. I spent my ’90s mostly in Chicago, and then I went to New York in late ’98. And my recollection is that fashion was very much about freedom. You know, the lower the jeans, the better…
Maryann: Oh my god, the jeans were so low.
Christine: The zipper was the size of your pinkie, the going-out tops, the size of the shoes, all of it…maybe because I was young, but it felt so appropriate. And I was a big slip dress person, as I still am now. And I very much loved Carolyn Bessette; that was another reason I loved Calvin. I loved all that. I thought it was a lot of freedom and a lot of fun. But then as I got a into Calvin and then a little older, it started to feel—and you and I’ve talked a little bit about this—a little oppressive, a little ageist. Now, particularly, in my 50s, the clothes haven’t changed. I’ve changed. And it seems like they only make clothes for women who are really thin and really young. And I did help a company get off the ground a little bit with some editorial because they wanted to talk to women in their 40s and above about how to dress, and some of the questions that they had had because they’re lost. And it’s not just because what’s out there—and there’s not enough have out there. But also because we’re at a time where your body is shape shifting because of both menopause and just middle age in general, and women are lost. And we have the most money to spend, which is why it’s always such a funny dynamic.
Maryann: Well, we’re gonna get to fashion over 40 in a second, but I just want to stay in the 90s for a minute. Should I play some music? OK, so you you brought up the minimalism. I have to tell you like, I feel like that’s coming back a little. I look at my wedding video and everybody’s wearing black or gray—at a wedding. Like it was so hard to find color back then. Do you remember you felt like you were being flashy if you wore something that wasn’t [a neutral]?
Christine: Well, I was I always say I was a minimalist from utero. Whenever you ask my kids, what’s mommy’s favorite color? There’ll be like, black, white, gray.
Maryann: Well, that’s a kid of the ‘90s.
Christine: Yes, so I didn’t love a lot of color in my clothing. And then when I went to New York, then I really was like, absolutely never. And for me, the white shirt, the white button-down shirt was like my staple 24/7. I had one of those on, I pressed them constantly, you know, with the ironing spray and the whole thing. And so I was fine with no color. And I wore Doc Martens. That was my uniform back then.
Maryann: I see my niece and my daughter wearing some of that stuff now. And it just brings back memories.
Christine: [Vogue says] the 2000s are back, and that’s been part of my book pitch. Because in the book itself, it is essays from coming of age sort of and I go through the fashion nostalgia. And so it’s a lot of fun to remember what you wore when you were that age and coming into your own.
Maryann: I have so many memories attached to that. In fact, I was recently writing something about all the outfits that stick in my mind. And because I think a lot of women associate beautiful memories with what they were wearing.
Christine: Absolutely, and a lot of people think that clothing can be armor, and it absolutely can be. Clothing is your identity, it helps you shape your identity. And not the label. It’s not doesn’t have to be designer or a certain brand. It’s what you wore and how you wore it; who you sort of wanted to become or became. And because there’s a lot of a trial and error in fashion, and trying on things for size, so to speak.
Maryann: Right. Christine, I don’t know if you felt this way in the 90s and working in the industry. But I had a little bit of a sense that there was ageism and a lack of diversity in terms of race, body size and all of that. And I know I made efforts to put diverse images on our covers and stuff like that, but we really had a lot more work to do. Did you watch the Brooke Shields documentary? Because watching that for me was like, wow, like I wish I had realized all this back then.
Christine: I did watch it what first of all, whoa! Some of the things that she was asked about her sexual journey and all of that—completely unacceptable, the sexism. But I did and I was surprised. And I guess we shouldn’t be surprised because diversity was not even something that they talked about but I think about like even like the Calvin runway: no color, or very little color. I remember I remember back when like Alek Wek was like the one token African-American model in some cases. And yeah, diversity was just never addressed. Now you mentioned ageism, and it’s really funny that you say that because I never thought about it. But in our offices, yeah. Young.
Maryann: Well, I remember we had a couple of 40-something salespeople in our office and I remember the 20-year-olds like me, you know, we were thinking, what are they doing here? Like, I was a little shit.
Christine: Talking about weight diversity, and this whole heroine chic and thin-is-in thing…There was a person who came into the Calvin office to do a presentation and it was about diversity. And the room is covered with men and women, gay, straight, all races. And she walked in to talk about that. And within minutes, she said, I just want to say you do not have a bias against race. You have a weight issue here. And everyone was raising their hand and like, we’re Calvin Klein. And it was awkward. You all have stereotypes in your mind, and you can’t get past it. And you know, and she was really unhappy.
Maryann: We were brainwashed to some extent.
Christine: I do think very much.
Maryann: You know, Calvin Klein himself was featured in that Brooke Shields documentary. And I remember when asked if she was too young to be making these racy ads, I forgot exactly what he said, but he kind of blew it off, brushed it off, like this is what men want to see. And we did…We saw everything through that male lens, that male gaze. Do you think that’s changing?
Christine: I don’t know. I would like to say yes. I don’t know if it’s changing as much as there’s just more attention to the fact that it’s happened. I don’t know if after #metoo, people are more conscientious of it, or not as overt about it. The fact that people are more aware does make it helpful that maybe it’s not happening as much. I still think it’s underlying: ageism, sexism, racism, all of it. Right?
I think we have a long way to go.
Maryann: A long way to go. Which brings us to…the Martha Stewart cover, which just came out this week. I just wrote about it in my newsletter. She looks stunning on the cover of Sports Illustrated, but I had mixed feelings about it. Did you?
Christine: So coincidentally, I was going to make a newsletter about this too. I tend to write once a month, and I tried to pick a topic I can dig into a little. And instead, I just did a post about it. And I wasn’t sure I was going to say what I was going to say, but I couldn’t take any more people celebrating it. I felt like applauding the fact that there was an 81-year-old on the cover because last year they had Maye Musk on. She’s 74. And she looked great. But what I disliked about this one, and it’s the most liked post I’ve ever posted…I said, it’s lies, because she’s saying, I look this way because I drink green juice daily, I work out, I use the skincare. I mean, do what you want to do. Inject, don’t inject, get a facelift, I don’t care. But don’t lie about it. Because it does change the expectations in the world of other women. And then also, you’re not the freedom of being 81 and being on that cover, so it sort of defeats the entire purpose. So you’re saying, like I’m ashamed to be older, I need to be retouched and I need to inject, to say, hey, I’m 81. And look how good I look. You can look whatever. So it almost deflated the victory.
Maryann: Yeah, I had so many thoughts on it. I also think the media just throws us these bones once in a while, like, here’s an 80-year-old woman, so be happy now for two years.
Christine: Wow, such a good point!
Maryann: And where’s everybody in the middle? Why is that you have to be 81. Like, where was Martha Stewart when she was 50? She was considered a Stepford Wife, uptight. They ignored her.
Christine: She could’ve been in jail then [laughs].
Maryann: Even when she had the street cred of having been in jail…The point is, once a woman gets to some age, I don’t know when society deems this, but we are now in this innocuous place. I call it grandma land where we’re not a threat anymore. And they can say, Oh, look how cute she is. We’re going to dress her up. We’re gonna doll her up in the sexy clothes, and it’s gonna make a splash. And it’s almost condescending. It’s patronizing. It’s infuriating, actually.
Christine: And I wanted to ask you that. I’m just looking it up now…Padma Lakshmi is in her 50s and is in this issue. And people have said…that she is not very retouched. She looks much more natural. And she is more of a representation of a woman in [midlife]…and she’s a great role model.
Maryann: Funny, the retouching thing doesn’t bother me as much as it bothers a lot of people. Maybe because I worked in that industry and I know that everybody is retouched. 15-year-olds come in sometimes with a face of acne and they’re retouched. So nothing looks the way it is.
Christine: I think because Martha’s face looks 30. And then someone had put up like a picture of her from a couple of weeks ago. It’s almost like, it’s fine to retouch a little. But to go to the extreme that they did….
Maryann: Yeah, they did.
Christine: …and to say, this is from green juice…
Maryann:…and not drinking alcohol for two months…
Christine: Right. And the funny thing is, and this is what I don’t love about this beauty world, that of course she’s doing a CBD serum with her dermatologists that she’s getting ready to launch.
Maryann: There you go.
Christine: There you go.
Maryann: There you go. Follow the money. [laughs]
Christine: Follow the money trail. [laughs]
Maryann: Well, we’ve exhausted that topic [laughs] OK, let’s talk about fashion over 40. I think I mentioned to you the last time we chatted that there’s an old story still up on Oprah’s website. You know, it’s funny. I looked it up last night, though. And it’s gone. And I wonder if it’s because I’ve been writing about that so much and linking to it that they finally got the memo: take this thing off. But no, there was an article up there at least a month ago….I think it was written by style director Adam Glassman, and it listed the fashion stuff that women over 40 should no longer wear. I think it included shorts, mini skirts, neon nail polish, trendy patterns, I can’t remember the rest of it. But Christine, what’s up with people still telling women what not to wear after a certain age?
Christine: My favorite thing is that a man wrote it.
Maryann: Yeah, that’s my favorite part. Even even if it was a gay man, I’m sorry, you don’t have any right telling me what to wear.
Christine: You’re not a 40-year-old woman, you have no concept of what it feels like to be in your 40s as a woman. And it is hard to dress as you get older, because of the things that we mentioned. Not only just as you age, your body changes, and then menopause just kicks you in the pants and your body just, yeah, you’re gonna have midsection differences, you’re gonna have all of it. I so I cannot say enough about this. You should wear what you want to wear that makes you comfortable and confident and happy. And we beat up on each other and on ourselves so much that you can only walk out the door wearing what makes you feel your best and brightest. And I will never not wear shorts because…I’m very short and my legs are my one of my best assets. So please, I’m going to wear shorts and shorter dresses.
Maryann: Me too. It’s about proportion. I’m petite too.
Christine: I have to have those on. You know, and the colors and whatever makes you happy.
Maryann: Shirley MacLaine once said that a woman’s legs are the last things to go. So you might as well show them off.
Christine: And who said you [must choose whether to] keep your face or your ass?
Maryann: Oh, I think that was the French actress…Catherine Deneuve.
Christine: And so I don’t know, I have a little bit of both.
Maryann: We should not beat up on ourselves or anybody else. But I’m finding the weight shifting challenging, because the clothes that I bought five years ago do not fit exactly the same. So it’s a little bit of a challenge.
Christine: It is a challenge. I did hire a nutritionist to get me through it; not to restrict me in any way but to teach me some things about things that are happening as a result of hormonal shifts. Things that are easy lifestyle changes that I can make, like more protein or when you eat certain things in the day, and how much hydration… I do different supplements. Because we, again, can’t beat ourselves up. We still want to have a good happy life. But there are some small things we can do to sort of overcome some of the things that are literally happening to us as we go through the day.
Maryann: I agree. I really think we have to embrace every new phase our body goes through and think OK, how do I approach this new body—it’s like starting from scratch, right? Maybe altering the diet a little bit, maybe altering the way you exercise. I wrote this piece on how to work out in midlife, because I was researching it for years and nobody had a story like, what do I do now? Is HIIT good for me? Is cardio better? Should I do strength training? So I researched it to death just to figure it all out. You have to do your research.
Christine: You really do. And I realized not just in the writing, but in my personal life, which is what leads me to some really fun articles. I rely on so many experts, because I don’t know what I know what I don’t know. And I love to get new knowledge. And that’s one of the things I do think that helps with getting older. And I feel young as a result, to never stop learning. I mean, I’ve been doing CrossFit for more than 10 years, and this nutritionist said, great, and what else can we work in there?
Maryann: That’s so cool. I’ve never tried it. Do you enjoy it?
Christine: Oh, it’s one of the loves in my life.
Maryann: Good to know. I like TRX. I’ve been doing that for strength training. And it’s easy, because you could like throw the stuff in your suitcase, take it with you.
Christine: To your point, strength training is the number one thing that we can do as we age. It’s so good. And it’s not only good for our bodies, but it’s like I sleep well, as a result. And I’m just mentally more aware. It’s just great.
Maryann: Well, there is a trend that’s been gaining momentum. It’s this idea that women in their 50s and beyond, can serve as the fashion mentors to younger women. And I think I mentioned influencer Carla Rockmore who’s doing it. She talks about fashion trends, weaving in new clothing and accessories with vintage stuff from her closet. What do you think of that? And you think that we have something to teach younger women about style?
Christine: Oh, I do. I think there’s a there’s a two parter here. I think it’s not only about the style itself, but [the woman]. For Carla in particular, it’s the way she carries herself. And I think more women in their 50s are showing these young women, we’re not being put out to pasture. That’s like the one thing and that life only gets better and more exciting. We are wearing color. We’re doing all these cool things. We’re starting on these new endeavors. And while we’re doing it, look at what we’ve got on and look how we put things together, especially this new younger generation is really into thrifting and vintage and secondhand as a result of this whole sustainability desire. They’re like, Oh, that’s cool. They had that the first time around? How was she wearing it? I think we have a lot to offer. I think that’s really cool.
Maryann: I do too. And we’re kind of the fashion historians, right, because like you said, we’ve maybe worn it in a different decade, and we can show you a different spin on it. We know a little bit of the fashion history and the moments you know, that we’ve lived through and I think fashion is history. Like your newsletter. I mean, there’s so much in fashion besides the clothes.
Christine: Yes, totally.
Maryann: So Christine, what are you looking forward to?
Christine: To get this book put into the world is my number one desire in life. It’s right now it’s called Clothes Minded…Fashionable Essays About Finding Yourself…I also want to continue to write. Like right now I’m writing a lot for the Quality Edit, which I absolutely enjoy. I just started writing a little for Margo magazine, which is a really cool little magazine online by a woman who is in her 50s…Simone Silverman. And then finding new people to write for and building up my Substack. And then of course, raising my 13-year-old babies and traveling with my husband just trying to live a good life.
Maryann: Travel is on so many of our lists, right?
Christine: Yes, yes. Gosh, I don’t know if I enjoyed it as much pre-pandemic but we have just started to embrace it with gusto.
Maryann: Last year we went to several cities. I was in France. I was in Amsterdam. I was in England. I mean, it was a little too much, so we’re kind of laying low this year. Where are you off to next?
Christine: Well, every summer my kids go to sleepaway camp and I spend a week in the Hamptons with a dear friend. And then as soon as we pick them up we usually go on a two-week family thing. Last year we went to Barcelona and Majorca and England, and this year we might be going to Scotland.
Maryann: Oh, Scotland is so beautiful. So magical.
Christine: My husband is Scottish American. My kids’ names are from the Scottish Morrison clan book. So we’ve got a tartan and it will be a very nostalgic and very sweet trip.
Maryann: Will you go to Oban and do the Scotch tasting?
Christine: Yes. But my husband is a cyclist and there’s a big World Cup kind of race this summer so that’s the idea too.
Maryann: And don’t forget to snap a photo of the Loch Ness Monster. That’ll get your recognition.
Christine: Yes, yes. You know, it’s funny, we just went to Rome for spring break. And Margo magazine asked me to write a piece about traveling with your family…And I said you know one of the things as my kids have gotten older, they have become such good travelers and I think it’s a real gift to give kids. I didn’t grow up traveling, so I think it’s a real it’s a real gift to expose them to it.
Maryann: Well Christine, good luck on all your travels. Have a great time. Good luck on the book. I’m gonna stay in touch with you to figure out you know where you’re at at every stage of the way.
Christine: Thank you so much.
Outro: Thank you so much for tuning in to More Beautiful. Please visit Morebeautifulproject.com for show notes and bonus content. And it would mean so much if you could subscribe, rate and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you’re listening. Together, let’s continue to change the conversation around aging.
