5. Am I Too Old to Wear a Mini Skirt?

5. Am I Too Old to Wear a Mini Skirt?

The following is a transcript of this episode. It has been edited for clarity.

Intro: Hey ladies, I don’t know about you, but I don’t like anyone telling me what to do. And I especially don’t like anyone telling me what I can and cannot wear. Why is it still okay, when it comes to fashion, for people to restrict and body shame women? Is there such a thing as dressing our age? And if so, what does that even mean? Stick around and find out. Welcome to More Beautiful, the podcast for women rewriting the midlife playbook. I’m Maryann LoRusso, and I invite you to join me and a guest each week as we strive for a life that’s more adventurous, more fulfilling and more beautiful than ever before.

Maryann: Hi there. Welcome back to the More Beautiful podcast. Today, I am thrilled to be chatting with my good friend and extremely talented fashion editor and style writer Gail Goldberg. Gail has worked for a ton of outstanding publications, including the San Francisco Chronicle, Time Out, Seven by Seven, Women’s Wear Daily. She’s also one of my besties and the person that I turn to for all of my style questions. Anyway, I’m going to stop stroking your ego. Hey, Gail.

Gail: Hi, Maryann. Thanks for the intro.

Maryann: Oh, my pleasure.

Gail: Am I blushing?

Maryann: I don’t know, I can’t tell, it’s too dark in here. But today, we’re going to talk about something that both you and I discuss privately, you know, the idea that if we’re a certain age, we are not allowed to wear certain things anymore, right? I mean, don’t you read about that all the time?

Gail: Oh my god, all the time, and you know how I feel about that. That is an absolute no, I definitely think people should be able to wear, no matter their age, whatever they want. Whatever they’re comfortable with.

Maryann: Yeah, I agree. I think I was telling you the other day that I read an article by somebody in a very prominent magazine, who pretty much declared that women over 40 should not wear miniskirts, they should not wear crop tops, they should not wear bright nail polish, they should not wear jeans with holes in them. I mean, the list went on and on. They should not wear shorts. That was where I really, really lost it. Like, shorts. And I just remember thinking, do we have this expiration date for fashion?

Gail: I mean, that’s just crazy for—I just think a list of any “don’t”s in fashion are…I don’t think you should ever have those. And you’re saying women over 40 are…It’s like, are we dead? Like, what happens at that certain age? Nothing. As we talk about, some of these women in their 40s, 50s, look amazing. I especially don’t like the fact of any man, or really any fashion editor—myself included—telling people what, you know, what to wear.

Maryann: Yeah, you bring up an interesting point. Because we’re in this environment today where it’s become a no-no to body shame anyone—not that it was ever good. But we’re really aware of body shaming now. And I think that’s something really great with, you know, my daughter’s generation, millennials, they’re really into reversing that. And we’re seeing, like, models, right? And fashion magazines of all shapes and sizes. So how come it seems like age is still the last bastion of discrimination in that area? Like it’s okay to shame a woman, if she shows a little elbow wrinkle or a little knee wrinkle?

Gail: Yeah, I do think ageism is like one of the last vestiges of any kind of, you know, discrimination. For me, it’s like, obviously I’m in that certain age category, too. Just in preparation for knowing I was gonna come talk to you today, I thought about my style, you know, how it’s changed. Like, when I hit 40, was I like, ooh, you know, or, you know, in my 40s, changing the way I look? And honestly, no. I just think for most women, the style that you’ve always had will grow and evolve, but I just don’t think it’s right for anyone to like, have really any comment about your pudge or your wrinkles or anything like that. You know, it’s just…I don’t know why, though. And I also think, like, why aren’t we talking about men’s pot bellies? And they’re like, you know, those men that have the big pot belly and then the little chicken legs, and they’re wearing shorts. It’s like, no one comments on men still, and well…

Maryann: I don’t know about nobody comments on.

Gail: All right, that’s true, that’s true. But not as much as women, I feel like.

Maryann: No, it’s so true. Especially not in magazines, right? I don’t think I’ve ever picked up, like, a copy of GQ or any kind of men’s publication where they say listen, fellas, you shouldn’t be wearing this!

Gail: Right, right. And again, we are fashion editors and writers. So of course, it’s our job in that role to give advice, talk about trends, what might look good on certain body types. But again, I just don’t think it’s hard and fast rules. And I’ve always dressed to please myself, and I always have. And if I’m happy with what I’m wearing, I really don’t care what anyone else says. And I know it’s not always easy, but I’m all for it. I mean, if a woman who’s larger, older, wants to wear many skirt, a bikini on the beach, go for it.

Maryann: I like that. Because I think no matter what age you are, it should be your discretion, right? What you wear, your good judgment, right? And we’re not advocating pairing, you know, like a short crop top with a micro mini and stilettos. I mean, you know, there is such a thing as taste. And what did you say to me the other day?

Gail: Oh, yes. I was like, as a fashion editor, you know, I can’t help it. I do walk down the street, looking at people’s outfits and in my mind saying, oh, that would be better with the shoe, that color should go with that. You know, I’m editing as I walk, the same way as when I read articles or look at advertisements. I’m catching typos and saying, you know, don’t they have a copy editor? So yes, I feel like style is an individual thing. And if that person is comfortable, what I also said is, you know, if you are older, and you’re wearing a really short mini skirt, maybe a crop top—and if you’re comfortable, great—but be prepared. Hopefully you have a thick skin, because you might get looks. You know, people might whisper. Which is not OK at all, but…If you’re fine with that, I say go for it.

Maryann: So it’s all about confidence, that’s what you’re saying.

Gail: Absolutely. It’s absolutely about confidence. And to me—I don’t know about you—it’s all about what you feel good in. If you feel good, it doesn’t matter.

Maryann: Because you know, it really shows when you’re not confident. Like there have been times in all of our lives we put something on and we feel like, I don’t know about this. And we go out and then the whole night you’re just not comfortable. And you feel awkward. You’re not yourself. So I agree, you should be comfortable.

Gail: Oh my god, yes. I don’t know about you, but those pieces that you always feel good in…I always say to you and my other friends, like, how come I need every piece of my closet to feel like this? Somehow it doesn’t always work. But I have learned as I’ve gotten older and wiser that if I’m uncomfortable, I immediately just change before I go out. Because exactly like you said, I will be so uncomfortable the whole night, and then it’s just a downer.

Maryann: Yeah, it is a downer. I mean, should there be any rules, though? I think the rules should be more general fashion rules than age rules, right? Because it’s not fair to say like you shouldn’t wear a micro mini if you’re over 40. I think you shouldn’t wear a micro mini if you don’t feel comfortable.

Gail: I mean, in terms of rules, I was thinking about this the other day. When I was in high school—I won’t name names—I had one of my friends, we met up at the library and her mom came in. So if I was in high school, her mom was probably in her mid 40s or whatever. And her mom came into the library with high ponytails like Cindy Brady, and she might have even had like…

Maryann: No way, like two of them?

Gail: Yeah, like two high pigtails like a little girl. Hey, you’ve seen me, I wore braids and stuff, but they’re like messy, low braids.

Maryann: Yeah, I’ve worn low pigtail.

Gail: Yeah, that’s okay. But like these high little little girl…And I just remember, so I’m like, 14, 15, thinking to myself, oh my god, if that was my mother, I’d be so embarrassed. I just was like, immediately like, what are you doing? But that’s a whole ‘nother podcast.

Maryann: It’s funny you say that. I think I told you I heard overheard my daughter, one of her friends, saying something in my kitchen. Like, you know, it’s just so embarrassing when moms were crop tops. And they weren’t talking about short crop tops. They were talking about the ones, you know, like that show an inch between, like, a high waisted skirt. And I thought that was funny.

Gail: Well, it is funny, but I can relate to that. Just because your mom is always going to embarrass you. Especially, you know, when you’re in your teens or early 20s. But yeah, I just think it’s like you said, it’s at taste level. And I do think also though, like I was like, who does this? It’s kind of like some of the Real Housewives, I feel like.

Maryann: You know I don’t watch them, I don’t.

Gail: I know you don’t, it’s my guilty pleasure because I watch so much news, I need like the, you know, polar opposite to get out of that. But I feel like when you try to dress younger, it almost ages you in a way. Again, you know, no “don’t”s, but just, you know, just be tasteful. Dressing your age, I guess, is the question, right? What is dressing your age? I don’t know.

Maryann: So, OK, let’s talk about some celebrities who have kind of pushed the envelope. We know Jennifer Lopez wears everything. No need to even talk about her. I think I mentioned to you I saw this photo of Felicity Huffman. She was wearing a crop top with an amazing pair of like flare pants that were high waisted. I thought that looked gorgeous. Are there some other people you feel like pull it off after 40?

Gail: Well, I I really love Jennifer Aniston’s style. She’s pretty minimalist, but there’s always like a cool detail. She always looks good, and the thing is she’s like 50 or 50 something.

Maryann: She’s 52.

Gail: 52. She doesn’t look old—she looks cool and hip—but she’s dressing appropriately. You know, I just think, again, she’s had this style almost her whole life and she really hasn’t changed it up. Maybe if she wore a shorter crop top in her 20s, maybe it’s an inch longer, but it’s still a little sliver of skin.

Maryann: Right, right. And I will note that she’s wearing everything on that list that was an apparent no-no. And I’ve worn them all too since turning 40. Shorts, mini skirts. And I will say that, you know, you and I are actually petite, I should mention. No one can see us on podcasts, but we’re under 5’2. So at 5’2, it’s like, what is short? Because I don’t look good in long skirts necessarily. I need a shorter skirt to look in proportion, and it’s all about proportion.

Gail: Right. The thing is, in terms of shorts, I will say, I do wear denim shorts casually, but—I don’t think it’s an age thing—I just don’t think I ever really liked myself in shorts. And, you know, again, it’s all about style. You wore a really cute outfit the other day, which was a crop top and a matching skirt. But again, it was just a sliver of skin showing and it was tasteful.

Maryann: That was a midi skirt. So it came down pretty long. So that was the other thing I wanted to bring up about proportion. Like, if you’re gonna wear the more form fitting top, wear the looser bottom.

Gail: Right, or even that top would look super cute with a pair of baggy jeans. Maybe high waisted so you’re not…But like, what I was gonna say is, I would not wear that because that’s not my style and I don’t think it would look good on me. But I love it on you, because we all have our own style. So, you know, you could be walking down the street and see an older woman and think, wow, that’s so, you know, tasteful. So sophisticated. I love it. And then you try it yourself, and you might be like, it’s not really me on me, but I love it on her.

Maryann: I’ve seen things on Jennifer Aniston that don’t look good on a 20 year old. Like it really just depends on the individual woman. I think age is irrelevant. You’re dressing for your body type, your attitude, your style, sensibility, and the appropriateness of the occasion.

Gail: Correct. And like, with all this, obviously, I’m a big accessories person. So I think all that ties in as well. Like their shoes matter. The jewelry matters. Like all that, you know, completes the look. It’s just taking all those things into consideration with age, too, like walking around in, you know, five inch stilettos. Like, not at an event, but you know, down the street, when you can’t even walk.

Maryann: Gail, you know I’ve been known to do that. I mean, not five inch, four inch.

Gail: I know, but we’d be going somewhere, you’re not just…

Maryann: Right, I’m not, like, going grocery shopping.

Gail: And that really isn’t an age thing either. That’s why I feel like age, even though it is an issue, it should not be an issue because it’s general style. You know, rules, or un-rules, or whatever you want to call them.

Maryann: I have a friend that gives me such shit for wearing high heels all the time. Like that’s a whole other podcast about short people. You know, we went for a hike once and she goes, oh, I thought for sure you were gonna show up with stilettos. I’m of course wearing my sneakers, but, you know, her expectation of me is wearing heels. I felt like saying, you know, you’re five foot seven, girl. Give me a break! When you’re tiny it’s like you’re always…You don’t want to look up at people constantly.

Gail: Right, but the thing is—and I don’t really wear heels, I wear, like, not flat flats, but a platform or smaller heel—I think we should feel fine doing that too. But I get you. You don’t want to be looking up at people. And some petite people only wear flats and they’re good with it. And then taller friends wear flats because they’re almost self conscious of their height. And then I know taller friends who also wear heels because they’re like, I’m gonna wear heels because I want to. Again, it’s all an individual thing.

Maryann: It’s so funny, I once had a guy at the Jimmy Choo store in New York tell me I should not be looking at the high heels. That because I was petite, I should be getting like a two inch heel. And I was like, you have no idea what you’re talking about. I mean, I can understand like the proportion thing, but if it’s the right kind of heels…like I don’t want to be wearing six inch platform heels. So let me ask you, like…I just thought of of asking you this. What would be your ideal outfit right now for say, like, going to a concert? Would you wear to a concert?

Gail: Oh, that’s easy.

Maryann: Dreaming about going to a concert. I hope it happens.

Gail: I mean, just for the record, I wear jeans like 99.9% of the time. But I, you know, for a concert, that’s easy, I’d wear like a cool T-shirt. I’m big on graphic tees. Maybe sort of the jeans I have on now, which are a little baggy and boyfriend-y.

Maryann: Which I love, by the way.

Gail: Thank you. And then, depending on the weather—although we’re in San Francisco, so we know the weather—it’s pretty…

Maryann: Always carry a jacket here in San Francisco. Always layer.

Gail: Always layer! Probably a pair of like chelsea boots, like maybe a higher platform, and then one of my signature pieces, probably an oversized like blazer.

Maryann: Yep, I can see it now.

Gail: But the T-shirt would be fitted, because if I have the oversized size blazer, and then when I took off the jacket, it would look cool with just the silhouette of the jean. Maybe a baseball hat, which I always wear, or my hair up in a messy bun. I’m very picky about my accessories. Like I said, I like to choose not as…It’s not like a statement necklace, but some piece that’s the focal point. Whether it’s a really chunky bracelet, then I’d wear minimal earrings, or vice versa. And always I do wear a watch. It’s not an Apple Watch. I just like to wear an oversized…It’s just an old toy watch.

Maryann: Yeah, you wear a lot of watches. I love that.

Gail: Yeah, and I have—as Maryann knows—I just wrote a piece about a watch that was my dad’s it’s vintage, and it’s super cool. And it just makes me feel like, you know, he’s with me. So I like wearing that.

Maryann: Yeah, I can see the outfit in my head now. Like I’m picturing it. It’s so you.

Gail: I mean, that’s kind of what I wear! But I will say lately I have been getting like…I’m trying to wear, you know, spread my horizons even in COVID, just to feel more comfortable. Dresses and stuff. You inspire me, because your style, I feel like, is a little more feminine and girly, but still cool. So, yeah. What would you wear?

Maryann: You know, not so dissimilar to that. I think I’ve definitely…Jeans.

Gail: You would wear jeans, yeah.

Maryann: I would wear jeans, I’d probably wear, like, a pair of high ankle boots. Maybe my full leather jacket. Probably like my hair up with some cool big earrings. I don’t know. Just keep it really simple, comfortable. Chic, but at a concert, I need the heels. Because you can’t see over people!

Gail: Right. But you do need to be able to dance though.

Maryann: I can dance in heels!

Gail: You can? OK, I see, I would last five minutes.

Maryann: Oh, yes. I once walked 45 blocks in Manhattan with four inch heels.

Gail: Shut up! 40? What!

Maryann: Yeah. And not so long ago.

Gail: OK, that’s crazy. You…Audience, I will never do that in my life.

Maryann: They’re going to have to bury me in stilettos. OK, so that’s great. So what about to a wedding?

Gail: What would I wear? Oh, I actually would wear a dress. Typically, I do lean more minimalist, but I always, like I said, have to have a cool edge or you know, something. But I did recently buy like a really cool print dress. It’s kind of geometric and fun. And then with that, obviously to a wedding, I’d wear heels. But again, I’d keep it simple. Simple hair, simple jewelry, and let the dress be the star of the show.

Maryann: Yeah, and one thing I think you touched on it a while ago is like stick to one trend at a time. Like if you’re gonna pick a trend, just pick one.

Gail: Yes, correct. And I think also we, I feel like, you know, because we have a fashion background and, you know, we sort of know and we see a lot of things and we used to go to fashion week back in the day, we kind of know what looks good on us and all that kind of stuff. Whereas I do have a lot of friends and see a lot of people who are a little more unsure of style. And that’s fine. So I get why people might want to, like…Oh, this is the trend, I got to pile it on. But who said that thing about putting, you know, three things on and then taking off two?

Maryann: Oh, I can’t remember, I love that rule.

Gail: Yeah, I do that. It’s like you’re editing yourself. Like start with all the layers and then take it off. And it’s kind of like when we write. We do the same thing.

Maryann: Right, we edit. So I know everybody has their own little no-no list. Like for me it’s mesh. I won’t wear anything like mesh or logos. I don’t like big logos. I don’t want to announce what I’m wearing.

Gail: I’m not big on the logos either. No, I don’t need to see…again, back to the Real Housewives, I know you don’t watch, I mean, coming into Beverly Hills head to toe in her LV this and that. It’s like, I don’t care how much you paid for it, you look ridiculous. We’ll carry a bag this and that, I’m all for it.

Maryann: Right. I think, you know, little monogrammed bags are OK.

Gail: Pops. Right, right.

Maryann: But I’m talking about like the name emblazened on a T-shirt, or…

Gail: Yes. No, no, no.

Maryann: And I do have one thing that’s kind of funny. Like, I see these vintage style T-shirts everywhere. And I kind of feel like if you were actually at that band’s concert in the 70s or 80s, you probably don’t want to be wearing it on your shirt now.

Gail: Oh, I was like, oh, then you can wear it!

Maryann: No, I mean, I feel the opposite. I’m almost like, I don’t know. Because I feel like that kind of stuff is geared towards kids who are just discovering Guns N’ Roses, you know, or…

Gail: But you mean not your actual vintage tee, but like a new, quote on quote, vintage tee.

Maryann: Right, right. That’s my role, but I don’t judge anyone who does that.

Gail: Yeah. I don’t ever buy those new, if I have old concert tees. I mean, I wear those because I think it’s cool. Like this T-shirt is from 20 years ago, you know? But yeah, that’s funny.

Maryann: Well, you know, I think it’s funny too, that people judge women over a certain age. Like women are either talking about being ignored, being invisible, or having people say they can’t do things, whatever it is, you know, we’re going to talk about those issues on More Beautiful, like, constantly. But this statistic said that fashion companies are going to have to start paying more attention to us because there are currently 40 million American women in the 50 Plus category who represent over $15 trillion of spending power. So they’re calling us like the super consumers. So what do you think that’s going to mean?

Gail: Yeah, I mean, we can see bits of it already. Even your podcasts and like, in the last couple year or two, I’ve noticed a lot of magazine articles and a lot of focus on our age group.

Maryann: A lot of TV shows, books…

Gail: So I think, yeah, they’re starting to get the message. And like you said, not only do those women spend, you know, on themselves, they’re the ones buying for the family, the husbands, the kids, even though a lot of the kids are now out of the house.

Maryann: Yeah. And I mean, don’t you think that fashion designers and, you know, fashion houses are going to have to pay more attention to us and cater to us?

Gail: Yeah, absolutely. But again, like, to my mind, it’s like, I forget all the magazines used to do it. Especially I just can picture it, like the big fat September issues, or they did a monthly…

Maryann: Which I miss, we were just talking about this.

Gail: I know. But it’s like, “in your 30s”, and then they’d have the looks “40s”, “50s”, “60s”. And I’m like, I remember even being young at that time going, well, I’d wear a lot from the 50s and the 30s. So with what you’re saying, I don’t know that designs…I mean, yes, at a certain age, a lot of women get sort of the belly a little bit. You kind of become a little, you know, your hips might be bigger.

Maryann: Weight distribution is different.

Gail: Yes, correct. And I’ve always also been…I’m not a big like, you know, a lot of women don’t like their arms. And I think that gets worse. The chicken arm thing. But again, if someone is comfortable, I say go for it.

Maryann: Michelle Obama would disagree with that. She’s got rockin’ arms, man.

Gail: Well, right. I’m saying…exactly. But I know a lot of women, even younger women, are not…I’ve never been one, like, I love to show off my arms, even when I was in my 20s, either.

Maryann: That’s not an age thing, then.

Gail: No, that’s right. But also nowadays, there’s a lot of this, you know, universal sizing, or just like a lot of pieces that you know, can fit. Like, I’ve been seeing this everywhere. Even with jeans. I’m like, huh? Like I forget what brand it was, it like fits, you know, six sizes, whether they’re like, you know…

Maryann: That tends not to work for petite people, though.

Gail: That’s true. There needs to be petite, you know, separates.

Maryann: Yeah. It’s interesting because in my 30s, you know, when I was raising kids, and you have the baby weight and all that, I couldn’t wear half the stuff I wear now. I remember seeing that magazine article in O Magazine, and that’s just when I had gotten my body back. I was actually in the best shape of my life. I could wear things I couldn’t wear five years earlier. And I was so excited to go and get, I forget what it was, like, some dress that was a little shorter than I had been wearing. And I read this article, and it was such a bummer. I was just like, really? You’re telling me I’m shut out? Like the door’s closed now? Like it’s the end of the road? I just think we shouldn’t do that to women.

Gail: No, no. But like, the thing is also, that article shouldn’t even be allowed. It’s like, you know, X on that. But also I think even when you read it back then, you should have been like, I understand, like you were all gung ho and then kind of what was like, deflating, but it’s also like, you should be like, F you.

Maryann: Yeah, that was my next emotion.

Gail: Right, it’s more like, you know what? Whoever you are who wrote this, I’m gonna wear this. So F you. And I look great. And again, we all have our moments where we, you know, are not feeling great.

Maryann: I mean, the truth is, we’re all beautiful. All sizes, all shapes, all ages. I mean, when I see an older woman pull off an amazing outfit—it could be any outfit—and just carry herself in this way…I wrote in an accompanying piece in More Beautiful about this topic and I talked about this woman I saw at a wedding once. She was in her 70s. And she sort of had this long flowy gown on and her hair up and it was all gray. But she was dancing in this way that was just so free and beautiful. And she just was glowing. And I thought, I want to be her when I grow up. You know? Like, it’s about the aura.

Gail: It’s like, yeah, all these older models, and they’re gorgeous, and they’re gray—and gray hair I know is a whole ‘nother topic, but like Iris Apfel who just turned 100, I love her. I mean, her style is so amazing. And I’m pretty sure it hasn’t changed since she hit 80. But again, my mantra is just be you all the time. And like, I think too, like even my mom…She definitely dresses more conservatively, but she always looks put together, classy. She’s like a classy dame. And she always looks like that, even when she goes to the grocery store with her T-shirt and the cut of her pants or jeans, she just always looks put together. And again, she’s not comfortable with her arms so she has the cardigan. So you know, you do what’s good for you. But I just think ultimately, your style as you age just ages with you. Whatever that means. I’m always amazed when you see older people, women or men, who look so cool. They’re wearing like cool jeans, a T-shirt and they’re 75 and just look super hip and cool. To to me, I’m like, yeah.

Maryann: And they’re comfortable in their skin.

Gail: Yeah, like, right, that’s the thing. Those people, try and think of them in like an uptight, you know, conservative suit. It just doesn’t work.

Maryann: Well, I also know like for fashion people, people that go into this business, we like to use our imaginations when it comes to dressing up. So like I love to think about where I’m going, you know, the appropriateness of the occasion but also like, what outfits is going to just give me the vibe I want, right? Because that’s like the fun part of dressing up. And some occasions might warrant a flowy dress and high heels, others might warrant a cute little romper, others your suit. You know, I just bought this red suit, I think I showed you, it’s like a power suit with a wide leg. And I’m looking for somewhere to wear this now, because you’re picturing something, an occasion or an event or a place to wear this thing.

Gail: Right, exactly. But the thing is with COVID and everything too, like towards the end of COVID, I mean I was wearing sweatpants all time. I still got dressed and put jeans on.

Maryann: You were, I was very impressed.

Gail: Just because I work from home, so I just wasn’t going to work well if I just had my pajamas, rolled out of bed to my desk.

Maryann: Some people did that.

Gail: I know. I should say that I’ve been working from home way before COVID, so it didn’t change that much in terms of that. But towards the end when I was like tired of just wearing nothing cool or, you know, good, I just started wearing, just at home going nowhere, stuff in my closet. And I just felt good. Because exactly, for a lot of people it’s just dressing is a creative outlet. So put on that ballgown at home with your slippers, man. I mean, why not?

Maryann: Yeah, no, it’s true. I mentioned earlier that you know like every brand, every designer. It just made me think of this joke. It was a Saturday Night Live joke that Tina Fey may have said and it was about Eileen Fisher being for women over a certain age. And I just thought of that, like do you have any…Are there any brands that you think—and I’m not not saying Eileen Fisher is bad—but any brands that you think, not are appropriate for women our age, but that are just really kind of classy and cool that we should go for?

Gail: For, like, quote on quote, work wear, office, whatever that means nowadays? I don’t know. Maybe, like, I think Vince because I feel like it’s like, you know, what did they say? You know, day to desk to dinner wear, like…

Maryann: Lately, my friend Jessica told me about Frame. They have some beautiful pieces.

Gail: Oh, Frame, too. Yeah, but just, I mean, we’re talking, you know, not high end, just regular contemporary brands. I think Vince, Theory…I am a big rag & bone person. Again, those are more casual, so it’s not really…I mean, but again, we’re petite. For people with different body types, you know, I don’t really know as much.

Maryann: It’s hard to find petite size clothing. There aren’t many mainstream brands that carry petites. I think anthropology has a pretty decent one, banana republic, I’m trying to think…

Gail: And again, those are not necessarily, right, like…

Maryann: Ann Taylor has one. But it’s mostly junior brands.

Gail: It is hard to get petites, because my mom’s petite, and I just know from her, and she’s obviously you know, in her 80s. And she used to love going to like Lord & Taylor and even, I don’t know if it was Nordstroms. And they had decent petites. And she says, there’s nothing anymore. They’re like all gone away, so…

Maryann: So like the Taylor is your best friend when you’re short.

Gail: Although on the flip side, I feel like there has been a bigger push for plus sizes and universal sizing. And a lot of brands, which I don’t know if you saw, Old Navy recently came out with this new program. And literally every piece is going to be available. I don’t know the exact range, but in plus sizes, not just like special…It’s like crazy. I don’t know if you saw the commercials with, what’s her name from Saturday Night Live? What’s her name, Amy Bryant, who I love, love love. She started the commercial. And like, that’s amazing. And so many other brands are doing that too.

Maryann: Now, all we want to see is in addition to having all of these models of different shapes, and ethnicities—which is so amazing, I’m so happy about that—I’d like to see, you know, a couple of older models thrown into the mix. Wouldn’t that be nice?

Gail: Yes, I think we’ve seen a few, but it’s certainly nothing as compared to…I mean, and the thing is now, like someone like Cindy Crawford would be considered. Not that she’s modeling, but she would be in that category. But like, you know, you’ve seen, like, a lot of these older women with gray hair…not even older, but…you know, those models, you’ve seen a proliferation of those, like in ads…

Maryann: But have you noticed they always are, like, obviously older? Like they have the gray hair…It almost jumps from having like an 18 year old versus having a 70 year old model. Because the majority of women we know from 40 to 60, say, don’t have gray hair.

Gail: Yes. Although, they’re starting to.

Maryann: Well, they don’t show their gray hair.

Gail: No, but I feel like since COVID, there’s been like a push, you know? You know, you’ve seen the movement.

Maryann: Definitely, definitely, yeah. But I’m saying like, it’s like all or nothing, right? It’s either you’re a teenager or you’re old. I mean, there’s there’s a big chunk in the middle that needs to be represented. Like, you know, what about a pretty 50 year old lady?

Gail: Well, there’s plenty of those! I mean, I’m looking at one.

Maryann: And me too! But you know what I mean. I mean, why isn’t that representation there? I don’t get it.

Gail: I mean, because, you know, in the hardcore old days, and I guess now too, in the fashion industry, young is what sells. And, you know, advertising and fashion is…A lot of it is aspirational. But for a large part of, you know, the population, aspirational would be a put together, showing her age woman that we would all aspire to. Right? I don’t know, who can we call about this?

Maryann: You would know, more than me. Get on it, girl! Change this, now. Because I think part of the reason that we don’t think we want to see, you know, a 40 year old model or something is because we’ve been conditioned to think that’s not beautiful. But I do think a lot of these celebrities are changing that, like you see them on the red carpet. JLo last week was, I mean, it could be Ben Affleck, but she’s glowing. I mean, she’s like…

Gail: I feel like she’s like a unicorn. We’re not all…I was never gonna be JLo at 25. But I will say, I just saw the other day…Celebrities, still, but Drew Barrymore and Cameron Diaz had a post that apparently went viral. Because they’re besties apparently. And I don’t think Drew is 50 yet, and I’m not sure about Cameron, but they’re up there, they’re getting closer to 50. And, you know, there were all these comments about how people were like, so happy to see women who are aging beautifully, but without…Whether or not they’ve had actual work, they just look normal and beautiful for their age and happy and beautiful.

Maryann: I actually like wrinkles and laugh lines. I mean, especially I love those eye lines. I think they, I don’t know, like…I just saw this guy walking across the street the other day, and he smiled at somebody and his eyes just…He must have been like 50, and he looked so good. You know, do we want to see all of your experience just like eradicated from your face?

Gail: And the thing is, I feel like men, too, like…We would say that’s sexy. Again, I’m not saying that men don’t get any, you know, criticism of things, and a lot more men are getting work, but I feel like it’s a lot more acceptable. It’s not the scrutiny that women get. But I think we were also talking about, the other day how the women who do some of this work look, make themselves look older than they are. Just do, I don’t know, do a sheet mask. I don’t know, but like…

Maryann: I know. Well you know, that’s why I think both of us are terrified of doing anything, because I see that over and over and over.

Gail: Yeah. I’d rather have wrinkles than look like some of these people. I can’t even see a remover face kind of thing. But yeah.

Maryann: I think it’s important to be able to move your face. So back to clothes for a second. We’re gonna wear what we want to wear. As long as we feel comfortable, beautiful, empowered…Comfortable is the key word, though.

Gail: Comfortable and confident. Yes. And good about it. And the other thing, don’t call by size, just go by what you want to wear.

Maryann: Oh, you bring up a good point.

Gail: Yeah, I feel like a lot of women, especially as you get older, and you’re like, ugh, you know, you don’t want to go up or, you know, even if your shape changes, you might need a different size, but it’s just all about fit.

Maryann: And speaking of that, have you noticed that little…There’s like a computerized questionnaire that some of these fashion websites have now. So like, you go to purchase something. And you’re looking at the size chart, and this little window pops up to say, do you want an exact fit? And then you answer a series of questions about your height, your weight, your age. And I’ve done some experimentation with this, because if you just type in your height and your weight and your body shape and all that, it will tell you one size. But then if you type in all of that plus your age, if you’re anywhere over 35, it would automatically bump you up like two sizes. And then there’s a little thing that says why, you know, and then you click on that, and it says, because, after a certain age, women’s bodies, you know, weight distribution changes. And they just assume that you’ve got this big belly, which is also another ageist thing, because some women don’t get that.

Gail: Right, of course it is. Some women look the exact same, I mean…

Maryann: And it’s OK if you do, but why are they assuming anything? Would I assume a 25 year old has an hourglass figure? Because some of them don’t.

Gail: Right, no, I’ve never done that. That’s super interesting.

Maryann: It’s really interesting. Whoever designed that thing needs to revamp it.

Gail: Yeah. Like the algorithms need to, yeah…They need other questions, like about your body shape, or where do you carry your weight. Not just an age. It’s not about age, per se.

Maryann: Right, because not only is that offensive, but it doesn’t work. Because if I went by that, I would get the wrong size. So anyway, I don’t know if you heard of that.

Gail: I’ve seen those, I will admit. Like a couple of times I went to start filling it out and then usually by like the third question, I’m like over it. I don’t have the patience for it. Or a lot of times I’ve done stuff like that and before they’ll send me the result, I have to give them my email, so I just don’t even wind up doing it.

Maryann: Right, good for you. Don’t give in. Don’t cave into the pressure. Oh boy. Well, anything else you want to add, Gail, about women and ageism and all this crazy stuff?

Gail: Just, congrats on your podcast. Again, my whole thing is just do you, people. I don’t care your age, your size. Just feel good about yourself and what you’re wearing.

Maryann: Absolutely. We love you. And I would also love to get, you know…I would love people to email or text photos of outfits they’ve worn. Wouldn’t that be fun?

Gail: Oh, yeah, like outfits. Or we could do like a fun thing, like outfits we feel really good in. And if we’re brave enough, outfits we wore that were like, felt so…

Maryann: Yeah, I think I may post on the More Beautiful page some photos of me and how I pushed the envelope in my 40s. I hate showing photos of me but it would be funny. I want to see listeners’ photos too.

Gail: Yes, totally. I’m sure there’s a lot of stylish babes out there.

Maryann: You should be like a regular fashion correspondent.

Gail: I would love to do that.

Maryann: Oh, good. OK, we’re gonna sign the paperwork just after we get off this.

Gail: OK, cheers!

Maryann: All right honey, thank you again.