The following is a transcript of this episode. It has been edited for clarity.
Intro: Female friendships. We all need them. We all have challenges with them. And sometimes we have to change them up a bit. On this episode, I’m chatting with a funny and fierce woman—whom I actually just met and befriended myself—about why it’s absolutely not too late—or, as my guest says, not too F*** late—to make friends, build community and invite pretty much all good things into your life. If you’re looking for a fun episode and can tolerate a few F bombs, then stick around.
Welcome to More Beautiful, the podcast for women rewriting the midlife playbook. I’m Maryann LoRusso, and I invite you to join me and a guest each week as we strive for a life that’s more adventurous, more fulfilling and more beautiful than ever before.
Maryann: Hi, everybody, welcome back. I’m so excited to welcome my guest today, Jen Marples. Jen is an entrepreneur, a motivational speaker, podcaster and coach who is dedicated to helping and inspiring midlife women to achieve the life and business they desire. Hey, Jen, it’s so great to have you here.
Jen: I’m so glad you invited me. I can’t wait to dig in and have a great chat.
Maryann: So Jen, your podcast and your mantra is—I love this—”You’re not too fucking old.” God knows this is my mantra too. And I think it’s such an important one. Such an important concept to keep reminding ourselves. What does that statement mean to you? And why are you so passionate about getting your message across to women during this phase of life?
Jen: Oh, that’s such a great question. The short answer is, it’s really a rallying cry for women, just to wake up and know that they get to do whatever the f*** they want, whatever that is: to start a new business, to take salsa dancing lessons, to go on a hot date, to travel the world, to do whatever they want to do. It’s just a rallying cry. I think that at my core, I’m an activist because, you know, we get women at midlife get negatively portrayed in the media. And we’ve been told by society that, after 40, we’re being put out to pasture. I talk to women in their 30s who are feeling like they’re too old, which is insane. It’s absolute insanity to me. So when I was going about starting my podcast—it’s called the Jen Marples show, but the tagline is, “You’re not too f*** old”—I was talking to a dear friend of mine, who owns a PR firm, and I used to own a PR firm. And I was like, is it, “You’re not too old” or “You’re not too f*** old!” And she’s like, you’ve got to say f*** old because “You’re not too old” doesn’t pack a punch. And I’ve got to get people’s attention, right? And it’s like, we don’t have time to waste. Tomorrow’s not promised. And we’ve got work to do. We’ve got things to do. And it was funny, when I was recording my intro—and you’ll appreciate this—I had one of my daughters in the back. She’s like, “Yes, Mom!” I’m like, “OK, it’s done.” But it’s scary. It’s scary to kind of go out with that and have an explicit on your podcast. But I have to rally women, because I feel like it’s an urgent cry for us to step back into who we are. And we are so powerful. We’re powerful beyond measure, despite what the patriarchy has told us.
Maryann: I love that. It is a rallying cry. I think you are an activist. And so much of what you’re saying resonates with me. You specialize in helping women pivot in their life and their career, and you have a five-prong approach to doing this. Can you briefly run through those for us, and give us some tips on living our best midlife?
Jen: I sure can. And you know, it’s really more like 12 [tips], but it’s probably 24. It keeps expanding.
Maryann: [laughs]
Jen: So just a little bit of the backstory: All the tips that I take my clients through, and share with women, and share on my own podcast, is everything that I did to change my own life. Because I used to own a PR firm. And you know, I didn’t wake up one day going, “Oh, I’m just gonna start a podcast and coach and do all these other things.” There was a whole process that I had to go through…Because making a big change doesn’t happen overnight. So these tips are tried and tested. And so I’ll share five today, and I just love them…
Number one, you need to spend time alone with yourself. If you want to make a pivot, any type of change, you need to be intentional about taking time alone. We have so many inputs. If you have kids, a husband, friends, work friends, social media…Everything is designed to disrupt us and distract us. (Sorry for saying kids are a distraction, but they are, in the best type of way, right?) But if you’re not intentional about taking time for yourself…you’re going to wake up five years later and be in the exact same place. So I always tell women—and this is what I did for myself—start with something small: 10 minutes a day, no inputs, nothing, no podcasts. You can have classical music on, but no words, nothing to distract you. So you can just practice being alone with your thoughts. And I’ll be honest, sometimes that can be a scary place to be. Because we’re really good at putting a lot of things on our calendar, doing a lot of stuff and running from thing to thing to thing, so we don’t have to think about what we’re not happy about or what’s not working. So start small. Start with 10 minutes a day, and try to [eventually] ramp it up to a couple hours—take yourself on a hike or [do something to] just get yourself out of your zone. The next piece of that is to go away. It doesn’t have to be far away; you can stay one town over and get a Motel Six, and just spend 24 hours with yourself. [That’s] a lot of hours when you don’t have all your responsibilities, and you can just sit with yourself and journal, and things will start to bubble up.
Number two, and this is really important, is to get help if you need it. Because I find that when we hit midlife, if we haven’t addressed things from the past, they’re kind of going to rear their ugly heads when we hit this midlife phase.
Maryann: Ooh, so true.
Jen: People say this all the time, but the greatest gift we can give ourselves and everybody around us is to heal ourselves. There’s no point in trying to pivot and do all these other things if you don’t first kind of have a little bit of a reckoning with yourself and go, “Is the inner critic just beating the sh** out of me? Is there something bubbling up from the past, such as my limiting beliefs? Maybe there was a childhood trauma or some drama that you haven’t addressed. I’ve done it all. I’ve got a great therapist, I had a coach. So you know, bring in people if you need it, but really address once and for all what ails you. And then that’s going to make you free to go on and really figure out what you want to do. And then I will say this, there’s no shame in getting help. I’m very vocal about this. Our mental health is number one. And we’re in midlife, so there’s hormones, there’s a lot of stuff happening. And I don’t want anyone to feel like they’re alone or going crazy. Just get the help.
Maryann: I agree.
Jen: Number three, you’ve got to say no to what’s not filling you up, lighting you up. So that you can open up space to bring in things that do light you up. Women are famous—and I was one of them—for saying yes to everything, because we don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings. And so what happens is you have a calendar filled with stuff that you don’t want to do. And we don’t want to be in that place. Because if you’re not intentional about opening up that space, and saying no, you can’t say yes to the things that are going to bring you joy. So I have a practice where I look at my calendar on a Sunday night. And I go, OK, look, let’s lay out everything that’s here. Of course, there’s all the things that we have to do—I’m not talking about [eliminating] work [obligations] or things you need to do with your kids. But if there’s a lunch or coffee or event you said yes to, and your reaction is kind of like “yuck,” then just get rid of it. Just say, “No, but thank you for the invite. I can’t do it.” Just keep your response short and sweet…
And that brings me to point number four, which is now that you’ve cleared your calendar, you [can add] things that bring you joy and make you happy. Maryann, you said you’re doing salsa. I love that. You put things [on your calendar] for no other reason than the fact that they’re interesting to you and bring you joy. They don’t have to mean anything. It doesn’t mean that’s what you’re going to do with the rest of your life. But if you want to do the salsa dancing, if you want to take a book-writing class, if you want to go to a lecture, if you want to do yoga, teacher training, just do it…
And then number five—and I know we’re gonna get into this even greater with our conversation today—is: Surround yourself with the right people in the right support groups. Because if you want to do new things, and go to new places, you’re going to have to find new people to get you there. And this is not to say there’s anything wrong with the people in your life. Everyone in your life is lovely. But I know what I found out when I was stepping in and stepping out, I needed to find new groups of women to support me in my endeavors. I could not have done everything I’m doing right now, without all those support systems in place. And I’ve got a couple of different ones. I’ve joined groups. I had a coach, I have masterminds that I joined, and I actually have a small group of women who are kind of doing the same work. We’re constantly checking in on each other. In midlife, especially…I like to joke that one day, you’re Beyoncé, the next day you’re crazy…
Maryann: [Laughs]
Jen: …But that’s just life in general. So the people in those groups are going to be the ones that when you’re feeling down and you’re like “God, I’m having a day,” they can reflect back to you your purpose, your intention, how amazing you are. I’ve been on a lot of these calls [where] I’m the one crying. And I’ve also been the one cheering. So I can’t understate the importance of these new friendships in these groups enough, because they’re really going to help you get to where you want to go. So those are my top five.
Maryann: Those are great, Jen. And you know, Jen and I are gonna get into the friendship and community building for the rest of the episode. But I just want to backtrack for a second…I love your tips. And I love how you said, clear the calendar so that you can add things that bring you joy. And I know there are going to be some people out there listening who are going to be thinking, Maryann, Jen, I don’t know, I’m a busy woman, I have to put food on the table, I have to work…And I remember saying that when I was younger and was working full time. But I also remember getting home at the end of the day, plopping down in front of the TV and kind of wasting that extra time that I had. So I just want to be clear, what you’re talking about is that that precious time that we do have to ourselves, don’t just give it away, right? Be selective about it.
Jen: 100 percent. And there is a lot going on. I mean, most of us are working, and [many] of us probably have teenagers at home…We have aging parents—I know you have a mom that you’re very connected to and taking care of. So there’s a lot on our plate.
Maryann: Yes.
Jen: So it goes back to knowing that you deserve that time. You deserve some joy, you deserve to do this exploration, but you have to absolutely be intentional. I used to be that person [who would say], “I don’t have any time, I can’t do this.” But I’ll give you an example. Last night, I hosted an event and there were all these amazing women there and this point came up and it’s really important to hear. It’s an event in the city of San Francisco…
Maryann: So sorry I missed it…
Jen: It’s fine!…And someone [at the party] brought up a point. She was like, “It’s really important to be intentional about doing these things. Because once you’re out and surrounded by other women, you’re having these really deep conversations, you’re realizing that I am not alone in my thoughts and I’m navigating the world—like, we’re all doing this together, and it was worth the effort to go.” Because once you’re there, and you’re intentional about where you want to go, you have all these wonderful benefits that are going to lift you up and help to propel you through the day, through the week, through the months. And I saw women making new friendships and connections, exchanging business cards and following each other on Instagram and going and finding some similar connections. But we can’t find that if we don’t allow the space for that. So everybody absolutely has the time to do it, you just have to be intentional. So you got to get rid of the stuff that’s just noise and busy work. And like you said, we can all Netflix and chill. There are definitely nights to do that. But once a week, once every two weeks, put something in your calendar that puts you in the zone of meeting these wonderful new people. You’re not going to be sorry.
Maryann: I can’t tell you how many times I didn’t want to go out. And then I did and had a wonderful time, like you said, and made those connections and just skipped out of a place on cloud nine, so happy that I made the effort. But it’s funny, we’re talking about saying no, and I wrote a story recently about saying no. And then, later, I wrote one about saying yes. I think we’re torn because there are these two concepts here. You have to say no to the things that don’t feed your soul and that drain you. But you have to say yes to things that are going to lift you up and put you on a higher plane and make you happier. So it’s a balancing act.
Jen: It is a balancing act. And the true test is…If there’s a thing that you’ve done a million times and you’re like, I don’t I just don’t want to do this anymore, don’t say yes. Like that trip with a certain group of friends or the lunch that always happens because it’s what’s always been done. Don’t do it. It’s also not fair to the other people. So if your heart’s not really in it, then don’t go. I mean, do you want somebody coming to hang out with you or go on a trip with you that was like, I’d rather be Netflixing and chilling? So just run everything through that filter. If [you’d rather stay home] than take an online class, just get rid of it. And then conversely, the things that you say yes to or that full body? Yes. Like yes. And even if I must say this too, because even if it’s not Not because if you’re a little, if you feel a little trepidation of going to someplace, it might not feel like a full body, yes. But just think of yourself going somewhere with the intention that you’re going to meet amazing women. And that’s exactly what you’re gonna get. Yeah, I mentioned visualization, visualization. Visualization is a big thing for me. So if I visualize a roomful of fabulous women, I’m gonna walk away with some new friends and new contacts, like how you and I met, Maryann. So for all of you listening, we met at an event, and we didn’t actually get to chat that night. But when we all kind of put information in these gift bags about each other, and I was like, “Wait a minute, Maryann was there and she’s got a podcast?” So while we were doing the same work, we were intentional about connecting afterwards. And, you know, I didn’t know who was going to be at this event—I knew one person—and neither did Mayann. And I said, I know I’m gonna, I know this one, the woman who invited me is incredible. So all these other women are sure to be incredible. And that’s exactly the room we walked into, we both took the plunge.
Maryann: It’s funny, because you’re talking about listening to your body. And if you have a feeling like, “Ugh, I don’t want to take a shower and get dressed,” that’s one thing. But if the feeling is, “Ugh, I do not want to be in the same room as these people that drain my energy,” [that’s another thing]. There are two different kinds of “ugh.” One is just a matter of getting your a— up and doing what you need to do to put yourself in the good place. But the other kind is…a red flag, right? And that night, I remember thinking, “I gotta get dressed up? I don’t know these women…Are they going to be dressed fancy?” [But] I got past that. And I walked into this room of the most amazing women, including Jen. I saw her from across the room and thought, “What kind of badass is she? I want to meet her.” You just never know what’s going to happen. Never.
Jen: Absolutely not. And I think I remember that day too. It was a Monday night, and Monday nights are always a little tough, because you kind of start the week like, “Oh, my God, it’s Monday.” But I always go back to my place of, “I’m going to meet incredible women, I’m gonna get dolled up and I’m gonna go to this event.” And I remember telling my husband, “I’m tired, but I’m gonna go.” [I ended up shutting down the event.] I didn’t get home until 11 o’clock; I was just so busy chit-chatting. So it’s getting out of your [comfort] zone. And if this is a new concept, and you’re not used to doing it, like I love going places alone now. And I know that that might be terrifying. But I would like to challenge everybody to try it. Because if you don’t have your wing woman with you, it really opens you up to meeting new people..you’ve got to go do it, and it can be done. You’re not going to die. I promise you, you will not die going to an event alone. You will not.
Maryann: Funny you say that, because I recently began challenging myself to do that. Even when on vacation. I went to Palm Springs last year, and I got there a couple days earlier than my girlfriends, so I took myself out to a nice dinner. You know, I mean, there’s nothing wrong with it. It’s great. It’s fun, actually.
Jen: It’s so fabulous. And when I was starting this whole journey…I used to own a PR firm and I shut it down, and I was just taking steps that I thought were going to bring me back to myself. And one thing I did was go into the Mission District in San Francisco, where somebody was doing a live podcast recording. And my husband was like, “You’re not taking anybody?” and I was like, “No, I’m going alone. I’m getting out of the suburbs here.” I used to live in the city. I parked…It was a warm night in the city, the energy was high. I walked in and there were all shapes, sizes, ages, everybody…It was at the Beta Brand Studio. And it was a really pivotal point because…when my kids were younger and you’re in that trap of driving in circles…working, picking up, dropping off, working, picking up kids…This life is just so monotonous. So it was so important that I did that. Because when I was walking through the Mission District and [thinking], “Nobody knows my story. They don’t know I’m a mom of three and what I do for work or anything. I’m just a woman cruising the streets,” and you really start to come back to yourself. So when you do things alone—like when you were alone in Palm Springs—you’re like, “This is me, I’m going to go where I want, kind of where the wind blows. You really start to tap back into yourself, because when you get to that midlife phase, where I found myself, you do lose yourself to a certain degree, and you start peeling back layers of a career and peeling back the kids and maybe your spouse. You just keep peeling back. And what are you left with? And if you don’t think about it….I was in a somewhat terrifying place of, “Who am I? What am I? What do I like?”
Maryann: That’s so powerful, Jen. You know, I once was talking to somebody on the show about being a mom. If you remember the early years of pushing that stroller, and you felt like the stroller and the diaper bag were an extension of you, almost a part of your body. And then you maybe spend years going out to dinner with a husband or a [partner] or your groups of mom friends…and maybe being alone isn’t is very comfortable anymore. But at the end of the day, we are left with ourselves and we need to start getting reacquainted with that person.
Jen: And it can be a process. I’ll spare everybody all the details, but I’m basically a product of burnout. I used to run a PR firm in San Francisco and I did PR and marketing for 25 years. And I didn’t listen to any of the signs that I was completely fried and burned out. I had all my babies in the city, I was living at the corner of Haight and Ashbury, and I was just doing what we were all raised to do…You know, Cosmo magazine and everybody told us it was gonna be so easy to raise kids, run a business, be a wife, be fabulous, be involved…all at the same time.
Maryann: Yeah, all at the same time.
Jen: And during that journey, I cracked four crowns. I lost feeling in my fingers and toes. I think I was about to fall out. I was seeing stars.
Maryann: My God
Jen: And what did I do? I signed myself up for a boot camp in San Francisco, because that’s what every overworked mom needed to do. I [actually probably] needed yin yoga, but I ended up…running eight miles a day with like medicine balls. It was crazy. So I fried all my pistons. But still, I didn’t listen. I didn’t change anything. So fast forward a couple years, and my husband and I had a deep conversation. And he was like, “Jen…” [And, [by the way], I had to go through fertility to get my babies. It was a whole process and a whole journey.] My husband…basically told me I was awful, that I was a crazy person at home… [laughs]
Maryann: It was a reckoning. [laughs]
Jen: Because everybody on the outside was getting the best of me—clients, friends, all the people externally—but at home, I’m yelling and screaming at everybody. And I didn’t like who I was. But you know, I was running a business—this is who I was, it was my career. And I know there are so many of you listening who probably have gone through this. You’re praying for your kids to go to bed, because you have so much work to do. And the house is a disaster, and you’re trying to do all the things. And you’re not present with those little babies. And what I wouldn’t give to go back to some of those times…But I can’t beat myself up. I don’t want anybody to beat themselves up. We did what we did, and I give that woman grace for who I was way back when, because I didn’t have any tools. And so finally, you know, I wound out of the business and took the steps to heal. And I was left with myself, Maryann. And it was crazy, because so much of my ego was wrapped up into what I did for work….
Maryann: Yes.
Jen: And we’re taught [to be] Superwoman, that whole thing. And to just actually sit with yourself. That’s why I say it’s so important to sit [with yourself], and I hope no one out there has gone through what I did, and I don’t want you going through it now. Listen to the signs, because I didn’t listen. I was in complete and total burnout. I was talking to my therapist and my doctors, because I had adrenal fatigue and I had no iron stores. So I had to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. But it’s what I needed at the time. I remember my therapist saying, “You’ve got to go into the cocoon, the caterpillar phase, so that…one day you’ll emerge as the butterfly again. But…if I had lunch with you back then, I would have needed a three-hour nap to recover. I was so burned out. I slept in on Saturdays until 12 or 1 o’clock. We’re in beautiful California. It’s a gorgeous day and can’t get out of bed because I’m so fried. So I don’t want anybody to be in that phase. It did take a lot of time to heal. I had to put the team in place…I was doing yoga retreats and I had a naturopath, astrologers…Anybody who was out there that could help, I employed them and asked them for their help, because I almost blew up my marriage because of it.
Maryann: You assembled your entourage.
Jen: Yeah, I had my entourage. And my husband’s going, “What the hell is going on? And I, of course, thought everything was his fault. And I’m very open about that. It all comes back to loving ourselves and healing ourselves, because everything else falls apart. I’m such a better wife, mother, friend, business owner, everything, now, because I took that time to put that team in place and heal. I knew that I needed the help and it was OK to ask for help. And I think for so many of us it’s so hard to ask for help.
Maryann: Oh, Jen, you just said so much in there! You know, self compassion is something that Jen when I were just talking about on her show—how we need to cultivate it for ourselves. And like she said, we need to give ourselves time to heal and come out the other end stronger, not just for everybody else in our lives, but for ourselves. OK, Jen, so assuming that we are in a good place with ourselves, with our wants or needs, in midlife, and we feel like we need a little more community, how should we approach that? You know, many of us have [collected friends through the years]…the mommy friends—the friendships we made when the kids were little—or the college friends or the neighbor friends….But maybe now we some different or deeper friendships now. We need that as human beings, we need good friendships, a solid network. Are many women yearning for this? Are they coming to you and saying, Jen, I need to make new connections? But how do I go about doing this in midlife? Are you hearing this from your clients?
Jen: 100 percent. I’ll give you an example. One of my clients was recently divorced. I mean, at least half of us find ourselves in that type of situation. And she lost half of her friends and family through a divorce. And it doesn’t have to be that dramatic. I just think when your kids get older, I find myself in this situation now with all the kids in high school. So we really lean in and rely on those relationships when our kids are younger: The carpool, and [the parents are] going to parties together and games together. But all that stuff kind of comes to a screeching halt. There might be the occasional soccer game or track meet or something like that. But you wake up one day, and you feel like you’re in this second phase. And you’re really evaluating friendships. So some of those friendships could have just been taken away through a life event, or kids growing up, or people moving away.
So for myriad reasons, we find ourselves going, “Where’s the circle? Who are my people?” Especially when you’re starting something new, and stepping up and stepping out, it’s really important to find these new relationships and these new groups of people who are going to help you propel forward. So what I told one of my clients is this—because she was feeling like people already had their friendships in place and it was impossible to find new friends, or that the women in certain places, like the gym, were kind of catty: You’ve got to reframe. And you’ve got to go into any situation assuming the best in people. You’ve got to walk in and tell yourself that you’re going to find new, great women to talk to. And it could be a gym, it could be a networking event. You might go listen to an author speak. But going in with that attitude is so important. Because whatever you want, you’re going to find. So if you’re thinking you’re going to find negative people, that’s who is going to come up to you. If you’re thinking you’re going to find amazing women, and that’s what you expect, then amazing women are going to come up to you—like the event we went to. I knew that I was going to find amazing women, and every single woman there blew me away. But I know it can be hard to start from scratch…And a lot of people move [during this life stage]. That happens too.
Maryann: Yes, this is a time of life where a lot of people are in transition.
Jen: Transition, yes. But it can be done. And it doesn’t even have to be done in person. You can find groups online, you can do group coaching programs, join book clubs or any type of thing you’re interested in. There are so many groups ripe for you to join. During COVID, when none of us could go out and do anything, I joined a mastermind group, and a group coaching situation. And I ended up meeting so many wonderful women online, so many women that are dear to me that I’ve never met in person.
Maryann: Me too, especially since launching this project. And COVID opened that up for us.
Jen: Yes, certainly with the podcast. And not all of you are going to start a podcast. But a nice byproduct of this podcasting world is that I’ve met so many incredible women. And I consider them to be super close. I’ve also met women online, on LinkedIn or on Instagram, and formed really strong relationships that have led to like a virtual coffee. I was at an event in New York last fall, where there was a group of us that only knew each other online. We met in person for the first time, and it was lovely…So the number one tip really is to be intentional. And to know that if you go out with the attitude that you’re going to find great people, you’re going to find great people. Two, you’ve gotta look for new things. If you’re going to one gym or yoga studio or something and it’s not working for you, go out of your zone and go to a couple different places to find exercise. So you’re gonna find some communities through that. My husband laughs because I walk around town [bumping into people I know] and he’s like, “You know them from yoga, right?…” Because I do go to two studios. It’s my passion. So yes, I do. I meet the best people at yoga. And then I’m in all sorts of groups. And so I just throw myself out there with the expectation that I’m just going to meet fabulous people, and I meet fabulous people.
Maryann: Well, you’re such an extrovert. I think introverts may have a harder time. And we’ll get into other ways they can get out there. But in the meantime, one of the benefits of having an increased social network is cognitive health. I was just talking about that with a coach who specializes in brain health and nutrition. Are there other benefits to expanding your network?
Jen: Well, I’m glad you mentioned emotional health. I [recently] watched a TED talk…tha [revealed that] community and connection were [crucial] to emotional health…And I think recently with Valentine’s Day there’s been a lot of talk about girlfriends and female connections. We need those connections. We actually need them for survival, mental survival, and we need them throughout our life. And you know, there’s that whole adage, the reason season lifetime. So if you’re out there, and you’re like, OK, I had these friends, like the mommy friends…You know, people kind of drift away, because you’re not in that zone anymore. And it’s fine. It doesn’t mean you don’t love them any less. But it’s fine. We’re just going to find ourselves naturally transitioning, and there’s maybe the friends that you’ve had from childhood, maybe they you know, they’re not in your life anymore. I will say though, if you do have some of those old friends who know where the bodies are buried, lean into those. And those sometimes are the hardest friends to find, because maybe you went to high school with them or college. And everyone’s sprinkled and scattered all over the place. But I will tell you, I just went to my 35th high school reunion last summer. All I did was laugh. I laughed and cried hysterically, for three days straight. Because you just get back into that zone. And it doesn’t have to be about work and kids and this and that. It was just fun for the sake of fun. And oh my god, is that good for the soul? Yeah.
Maryann: Also because older friends are a reminder of who you were before you became a mom or a or a partner…
Jen: 100 hundred percent. So yeah, there’s all that science, like, if you want to do anything to expand your life, especially if you want to go into a new business or start a side hustle or even try a new fitness regime, you’re going to have more success by surrounding yourself with the right tribe of women to get you to that place. It’s been proven time and time again. And it’s fun, because who wants to work out alone and work alone and do all these things alone? We’re not meant to be alone.
Maryann: Yes. You mentioned some of the issues and challenges that come up at this stage of life that might have us suddenly seeking a new friend group. Because it’s a tough time period. Like you said, we’re all in transition. And we thought by now maybe we’d be done making friends or trying to make friends and building community. But we’re not, right? We’re never done building community? It doesn’t stop?
Jen: It doesn’t stop. And in fact, I think it opens up so much possibility. I have made so many new friends over the last three years…At the end of the day, it’s about family and friends. I mean, no one’s gonna care how hard you worked when you’re on your deathbed. It’s the stuff of life, like breaking bread, having tea or coffee, and being surrounded by the right people. And I don’t want it to be scary, because I know I am an extroverted person, I’ve been the party planner, the people-connector my entire life. And so for all of you out there who are like me, look around for your friends who aren’t like that, and invite them to places, because sometimes they need a nudge, they need that encouragement. I remember way back when we started the school that my kids are now long gone from, I threw the kindergarten welcome party. And I knew there was a [a mom] who was really shy and introverted. And I told her, “You’re coming to the party,” and I had her come over early, so we could get to know her a little better. And she thanked me, and she stayed for like an hour. She didn’t stay the whole time, but she was so appreciative to get that nudge. I’m fully aware that if you [are an introvert], if you don’t have that in you, it can be really hard to go into new situations. So if you are like me, grab that friend and say, “Hey, I’m doing this—do you want to come?”
Maryann: I’m like you, I’m the party planner in my group. I was the social chair of my college dorm, and the head of the parent association at my kids’ school. But now I’m getting a little tired of being [the organizer]. I don’t necessarily want to be the one who always has to nudge other people to do things. I’m kind of losing a little bit of that. Do you find that’s happening to you? Do you ever feel that way?
Jen: Well, I don’t, because it’s like my whole reason for being. [Laughs]
Maryann: [Laughs}
Jen: So, you know, I put on big events. I’ve got the podcast and I coach women and you know, one of my superpowers is bringing people together. Like I said, it’s been my through line since the dawn of time. I think it was in junior high that I realized I could bring people together and I was the party planner. I was the social chairman of my sorority. But I come from a long line of women like that. My grandmother was like that. My mother is like that. We used to look around sometimes, and my mom and I were like, “Nobody else has parties, because we have all the parties. Just rely on us.”
Maryann: Yes, I’m like that. But I I guess what I’m saying is maybe now I’m looking for different types of friendships. I’m still a connector, but I’m finding that as I get older, I’m [craving] deeper friendships. Why is that happening to some of us?
Jen: Well, you bring up a good point. There are a lot of studies that show you can only have like three really close friends or something like that. And then there are these outer rungs of friends, and there are the acquaintances. I won’t get into all of that. But 100 percent, absolutely. At this phase, in particular, women need deeper, closer connections. And I just happen to go all in because this is my jam. So I feel like you and I are close and deep, like everyone I talk to, because that’s who I am, and I have a capacity to hold a lot of that.
Maryann: Like attracts like, is what you’re saying.
Jen: Like attracts like. But we need the deeper connections. I was just talking to my husband about a woman we know…I haven’t [gotten to know her any better during the] 10 years [I’ve known her]. It’s kind of like we’ve stayed [in that same superficial level] and I’ve tried and it’s fine, because you can only meet people where they are, to your point. But I want to go deep quickly. And it may be some type of survival thing at work, but I need to know that if you’re in your long marriage, you’ve had issues and [want to share how] you’ve worked through them. I need to know how you’ve worked through things with your teens. Because…women are so incredible because we can share and don’t hold back from sharing. Like you said, being vulnerable is how we go deep. Because right now there’s a lot on our plate, there is a lot that we’re dealing with. Like, I’m sure you have friends that are helping you deal with what you’re dealing with with your mother. And then you’ve got other friends like…the women we talk to about parenting. There are other women I talk to when I want to go deep, because I’ve known them for a long time, about marriage These [relationships] are all really important because they’re these big parts of our life right now, and we need that support structure. We don’t need a million friends—that is not like what I’m saying. But by stepping out, you may meet someone who’s going to become dear to you. I see it happen all the time. And it’s incredible.
Maryann: That’s so cool. There’s a story up on the More Beautiful website that I wrote a long time ago, called “Who Are Your Golden Girls?”…
Jen: [Laughs]
Maryann: [The story] is about how our definition of friendships changes through the years. Like, in college, your friends are the women who hold your hair [off your face] while you’re puking after a frat party. [laughs] When you’re a young mom and hosting an event, it’s the women who come over and stay late to help you clean up. One of my best friends is someone who stayed late and helped me wash the dishes, and she even started Saran-wrapping the [leftovers], like my grandma would have done. So our friendship needs do evolve over the years. Women tell me all the time, “I want to make new friends. I want to forge new relationships, but everybody’s got their friend groups already.” We do a lot of assuming, don’t we? And is that true from your experience? Are a lot of women seeking new friendships in midlife?
Jen: They are. I actually had a dating expert on my podcast, and a lot of the [dating advice] she shared is the exact same advice for finding friendships. You’ve got to go out of the zone and put yourself in new situations. It might be a little uncomfortable, but dating was uncomfortable, right? Go out with the intention of, “I want to make new friends, I am going to make new friends,” and put yourself in situations and put yourself in the path of meeting new people. Join a book club, or join that new gym. Go to the lecture, go to an event, put yourself out there, join a networking group. And there are women who they tell me all the time, “I’ve met some incredible women at networking groups…and gosh, I was so nervous coming in…but that was the best.” Have the courage to go to that first meeting. You just have to want it and put the effort in. Even people who have a lot of friends [are open to making new ones]. I have a lot of friends, but I just met you, Maryann. I’m not like, “Oh, because I have five friends, I’m not going to have another friend.” That’s kind of like the junior high mentality. And let me say this…Every single one of us is craving community and connection. Every single one of us.
Maryann: I agree.
Jen: Yeah. There’s somebody out there looking for you to be their friend.
Maryann: It’s so true. I have this one friend who keeps asking me, “How do you strike up a conversation with everybody you meet? Like, the bank teller or the bartender? The person walking the dog? I just talked to everybody. I don’t know, I have diarrhea of the mouth, I don’t know. But for women who don’t, for women to whom this doesn’t come naturally, what would you suggest? How do they become brave enough to strike up that conversation or go online or saying hi to someone or DMing someone?
Jen: If it’s scary to go up to somebody at an event, you can always start with a compliment. Because those will get you really far…and guess what, it makes someone’s day when you make a genuine compliment. I do that, and you probably do this too, all the time. I’m like, “Oh my God, that’s a great bag,” or, “Those are great shoes!”…
Maryann: …And make sure you mean it!
Jen: And make sure you mean it. I’m not saying be disingenuous. But we all love a compliment. And I love to give compliments. Think about how you can change somebody’s day. They could be having the crappiest day and you’re like, “Great hat,” or whatever it is, and you’ve just changed their day.
Maryann: Pay it forward.
Jen: Pay it forward. Don’t expect anything in return and just sort of leave it out there. Start having conversations online. If you’re on Instagram or LinkedIn, if you’re on social media, just start connecting with women. And again, it’s that compliment, like, “I love what you’re doing. You’re so brave to put yourself out,” or, “That product that you create looks so amazing,” or, “I love that floral arrangement. Start with little compliments and things start to get reciprocal. But just know that it goes back to that courage. And don’t assume that someone’s going to reject you. It’s like with anything in life, just assume that your compliments and your communication are welcome. And that the woman also wants to form a friendship. Like I say, everybody wants community and connection, and it’s a two-way street. So don’t stop yourself before you start.
Maryann: Right. And I agree that one great way to do it is to follow your passions and your interests. Because if you take a pottery class you’re gonna find other people who like pottery, or if you take a dance class you’ll find people who love to dance, etc. I have a friend who’s doing tennis and pickleball and she’s meeting her people that way. I think if you start with what excites you, you’re golden.
Jen: 100 percent. I go to a yoga studio; we all love yoga, so we’ve got that in common. To your point, take a ceramics class. Or pickleball—although I’m not going to try it because I’m really bad at tennis.
Maryann: I heard it’s much easier than tennis.
Jen: There’s that quote in the movie Clueless, “I don’t do well with sports where balls fly at my face….” So I just joke about [activities] like pickle ball and golf. But yeah, if you do something or join a book club, that’s automatic discussion right there that’s happening and you get to know people.
Maryann: In every book club I’ve joined, we never really end up talking about the book.
Jen: I mean, are book clubs really about the book? [Laughs] It’s a code name for, you know, just women getting together. And I also run a parent group at my kids’ high school. And our next topic is going to be connection and self care and all of that, because a lot of women…come to this group because they want to feel like they’re not alone. Because you know, parenting teens—that’s a whole other thing, that’s 20 podcasts. But that’s another way to look for [friends]…You can start with the kids and [other shared connections] and then go deeper into something else. So I love your point of just following your passions or things that you’re involved in where you need support, and you’re going to find your people.
Maryann: Yes. And I also think that at this life stage, we’re becoming less competitive with each other, and more nurturing in general—whereas, maybe when we were in high school or college or just younger, there was always this sizing up of the other person. And I don’t feel like that’s there anymore. Do you agree?
Jen: Yes, and no. And this is one of my favorite things to talk about. Because one of my big speeches that I do for women’s groups is women supporting women. We’ve got to do better. Because you and I….You don’t see it, because all you look for is the good in people and the support, and that’s what you offer and expect in return. And that’s what I offer and I expect in return.
Maryann: You get disappointed, though….That’s the problem with feeling that way.
Jen: Sometimes. A little example is, I was talking to a friend of mine who’s the head of marketing at a really big tech company. was promoting one of my masterminds, and I was…[getting] her perspective [on my speech]…And she said, you know, [regarding] the one point about coming into a community of women is [that], as sad as it is for me to say this, so many women today still do not know what it’s like to truly be supported by another woman.
Maryann: That’s so sad.
Jen: It just broke my heart. But it was really good feedback. Because I just assumed, like you, that everyone’s like us. But that’s not the case. So we just all need to band together and stop it. We’re not competition. We’re sisters in life together and we’re gonna get further and faster together. The guys do it. The boys network; they’ve been doing it since the dawn of time.
Maryann: Yeah, well they have their own issues, and that could be a whole other episode. But something you and I discussed earlier was this whole topic of women supporting other women. And about how we all need to just lose the judgment. We need to stop comparing one another, stop telling one another how to act, stop trying to change the way [another woman might be] approaching midlife or aging. You know, we’re all doing midlife our own way. We’re all making our own personal decisions. And that’s what makes us so special and unique. I have some friends who are going gray, other friends who are like me—they’re gonna bury me in my colored hair. Each one of us has a different approach. And just need to stop judging one another.
Jen: 100 percent. Stop talking about each other, stop judging each other. And this is what I challenge women to do. So if someone comes into a room—it comes automatically, you have this little judgment that pops up. And it’s not because you’re a bad person. It’s because we’ve been trained to have those thoughts about other women, about Madonna. We’ve been trained to have negative thoughts about other women by society…The key is stopping yourself. As soon as…a woman walks in with purple hair, you’re gonna start judging…But just stop yourself and ask why. Why am I doing that? Flip that [judgmental] thought and go, “Wow, look at her. Look at how she’s walking in full of confidence with her purple hair, whatever.”…It could be whatever, it could be a hot pink sequined gown, whatever the hell it is. Just flip it around and [acknowledge her] for showing up as herself. Good for her. Maybe I can learn something. Maybe I can suck off a little of that confidence or that courage and I can take that into my own life. But just be conscious of it. You’re gonna have little snap judgments every single time. Even if you see Madonna, you’re gonna have a snap judgment. Just flip it and go. You know what? Madonna has been a leader and a trailblazer; like you said [earlier], Go, Madonna. It’s as simple as that. Stop it dead in its tracks. Turn it around and keep going and [think], “What can I learn from her?” and take some of that energy and that fire and inspiration with you.
Maryann: I was having this conversation with my hairstylist and she was saying that she was walking down the street she saw this woman wearing a crop top and her first thought, which she recognized…She caught herself thinking, “Why the hell is she wearing a crop top?” …She was making a judgment. But she caught herself and she’s like, “No, no, she can wear whatever the hell she wants. She’s doing her.” And so I thought, that’s really great self-awareness. And so now I try to do that. If I get those thoughts, I just stop myself.
Jen: You’ve got to stop it, flip it and just do it immediately. And it takes practice. I was watching a video…I follow Dr. Haberman, and he was interviewing Dr. Sara Gottfried.
Maryann: I love her.
Jen: I love her too, and I’ve been following her forever. She plays in the midlife space, and she’s a very well-known, Harvard-educated doctor. What was atrocious was, they were showing the clip of the podcast and all the negative comments…Both women and men were talking about her appearance. It was just the way the video cut off…It showed sort of a little bit of [Dr. Gottfriend’s] cleavage. You know, when you’re doing these podcasts clips, nothing looks fabulous. And the comments, especially by the women… “We can’t pay attention because of her breast implants…” Nobody knows if she has breast implants or not.
Maryann: The comments were mostly from the women?
Jen: Yes, and, of course, a few from men, but I wasn’t paying them any mind. That is what makes me so sad. So when you said I hope women are supporting other women…
Maryann: Ladies, you gotta stop that. Just stop it now….
Jen: Just stop! Listen to what [Dr. Gottfriend] is saying, not [how she looks]. She could have been half naked up there, we have to get over it. So it’s about looking into yourself like, why are you triggered by something? [What she’s wearing] is not impacting your life at all, so turn the light back on you and figure out why you’re being triggered. Why do you need to make a comment?…I had a couple of viral TikToks, and 90 percent of the comments were positive, like “thanks for sharing that today.” The other 10 percent were about my appearance. And I’ve done so much [inner] work. I’m a very sensitive person, but going through coaching, training and all the [other] stuff that I’ve done, so I know it’s not about me, it’s about the other person. So I can bless and release, and…Block! You’re not going to be with your negative energy here.
Maryann: It is hard. But what you just said—it’s not about me—that is what I try to remind myself. Because I think that behind any negative comment like that is some kind of insecurity you have about yourself. Right? So I think the important thing for all of us to do, when we’re judging someone else, inadvertently or not, is just stop for a minute and ask yourself, “Why do I feel that way? What is this triggering in me? Is it jealousy, or comparisonitis? I talked on an earlier show about the whole jealousy thing. And I do feel like that’s something that is changing in me, like I don’t get jealous anymore, because…what’s the point? Time is running out in life, we’re all on the same planet doing the same thing, you know, sliding in the same direction. So it’s such a wasted emotion—they’re all such wasted emotions: shame, jealousy, insecurity, all of that.
Jen: It’s a waste of time. And I preach this all the time, like thinking about somebody else, because I talk all the time about not caring what people think. They’re not thinking about you. And if they are, they have problems and issues and they need to be thinking about their life. And if you are obsessing about somebody else’s life, you’ve got to stop and ask yourself, why do I care? It’s just gonna shine a light back on you, because they have something you want. Is it a career? Is it a partner? Is it the house or whatever it is, you’ve got to put it back on you. And instead of wasting time thinking about somebody else, spend that time figuring out how you’re going to change your life.
Maryann: Right.
Jen: Because we can absolutely change our lives. I will tell you one funny story. I was at an event with my husband. And I was very clearly with him.The event had ended and we were sitting at the bar in this restaurant having dinner, and then I [went] to say hi to a group of friends. So I left him sitting there for a moment, and some woman came up to him. And [when I returned], he told me, [whispers] “Hey, I got hit on.”
Maryann: [Laughs]
Jen: [Laughs] And I’m like, “Good for you.” And you know what she said?
Maryann: What?!
Jen: Her opening line was, “You could do better.”
Maryann: [Gasps] Oh…No, she didn’t! [Laughs]
Jen: Yes! And I told this story to some of my friends who were like, “Oh!! I wanna cut her!” AndI said, you know what, all I felt was sadness.
Maryann: Yes, yes…Knocking another woman was essentially her pick-up line.
Jen: Yes, she’s gonna knock down another woman whom he’s very clearly with, because we were sitting there having dinner. I told this story to other friends [who said they would have] gone crazy. And I said, “I didn’t go crazy. I just felt sad. I felt sad that she felt like she had to cut me down as her pickup line. And that we still have so far to go as women in society. Somebody hurt [her] somewhere back down the line. And I’m confident in who I am. I’m confident in my marriage and all of that. So I’m like, I don’t care. I actually sent her love and compassion.
Maryann: Yeah, but you didn’t go crazy for even a split second? Because I would have gone crazy. And then I would have been like, “You know, Maryann, this is about her and not you.” But you didn’t go crazy even a nanosecond?
Jen: I really didn’t. I really, truly didn’t. And I think, you know, that wisdom comes with age, and I’ve done a lot of work and a lot of training and all of that. You know, my friend LIzzie…She calls herself Mexipina, because she’s half Mexican, half Filipino….
Maryann: [Laughs]
Jen: She’s like, “Oh, hell, noooooo, Jen…. I would have beat the sh— out of her.”
Maryann: See, now that’s unnecessary.
Jen: It was just hysterical. But I just said no, because as I just said, it’s sad. [The woman at the bar] is [obviously] a hurt woman who is hurting other women. So it goes back to…We’ve got to heal ourselves.
Maryann: 100 percent. OK, so we’ve just outlined the next 10 podcast episodes we’re going to do…
Jen: We really did.
Maryann: But just reeling it back into the friendship conversation, I have a question for you: What do we do if we think a friendship has run its course? How do we end a toxic friendship, or one that’s just not serving us anymore?
Jen: Ooh, this is a good one. And I’ve experienced this a lot the last couple of years. So you know, friendships end for a lot of reasons. Or you wake up to the fact that [a friendship has become] toxic or one-sided, or you’re putting in a lot of effort and they’re not. You don’t have to make a big announcement that the friendship is over. You just slowly back out of it. You don’t accept the invitations, you don’t get involved in the drama. This has happened with a couple of friends recently. I was just like, “I can’t save you; you have got to save yourself. And I can’t be wrapped up in this chaos.” I didn’t make any pronouncements, but I stepped back.
Maryann: That’s not ghosting someone? Because I’m always torn…I don’t want to ghost someone and be a total a**hole. But I also don’t want to make a whole production of it.
Jen: You don’t make a production, you don’t ghost. You just start declining invitations. Because I don’t like ghosting either; it’s mean. But you can still love these people and set them free.
Maryann: Thankfully, this hasn’t happened to me in a long time.
Jen: It’s happened recently for me with a couple people. And it was like I just said, bless and release. I’ve got a lot going on, and this one particular person I’m thinking about just has a lot of work to do. And I can’t save you. And I tried. I put in a lot of effort because I care. I also can’t be wrapped up in the negative vibes and the drama of it all, so I just slowly pulled back…You don’t have to be mean. You don’t have to say, “I’m not going to be your friend anymore because you are horrible.” No one has to do that. It’s just the slow pullback: You’re busy. You can’t make the thing. And then slowly it kind of [fades]. I know it’s not one-size- fits-all advice, but know that it’s possible. You don’t have to drop somebody off like you’re taking somebody off the cliff, You just wish them well from afar. You can wish people well from afar. But, to your earlier point, we don’t have time to be friends with everyone. We can’t do everything. So it’s critical to kind of clean the slate and get rid of the friends that are dragging you down, the ones where if you said I’m dying of cancer, they’re like, “Well, I’ve got a really bad cold.” We’ve all had one of those friends. We just don’t have time for that surface level sh**. We need the real people to be in our lives.
Maryann: Just for the record, we’re not talking about friends that are going through a bad time or that may be particularly needy right now—because we all have friends that need us desperately at a certain point or another. We’re talking about the chronic complainers, the chronic energy drainers, the chronic drama queens, right?
Jen: That’s right. I actually was really direct with one person way back when she was having a very serious thing going on in her family. But again, I’m solutions oriented and action oriented. But then you realize that, like you said, we all have those friends where we’ve given advice, advice, advice, and they don’t take it. It’s their thing to fix and it’s dragging you down…I actually said to this friend, “When you are ready…to leave your husband, I will pick you up at 3 o’clock in the morning and move you out. But I cannot listen to this anymore. I will not talk about this anymore. I can’t do anything anymore.” And that pretty much kind of ended the friendship. And she ended up burning a lot of friendships. Again, bless and release. Because I care. I wanted to help. But sometimes you have to be that direct.
Maryann: [You just reminded me of] a new show starring Jason Segel [and Harrison Ford, called Shrinking]….on Apple TV.
Jen: I saw it advertised.
Maryann: [Segel] plays a psychiatrist, who one day decides he’s going to just be really honest—brutally honest—with his clients. Like, you need to leave this guy, or you need to clean up your act, instead of like, tell me how you feel. It’s really interesting and worth a watch.
Jen: I think the [showrunners] are the same people who made Ted Lasso…I’m in. Because I love Ted Lasso.
Maryann: Me too. So…Jen, this [conversation] was amazing. Do you have any last-minute tips for women out there who are seeking new friendships, or just need a little motivation or inspiration to get out there?
Jen: First of all, you just need to know that you’re not too f*** old to make new friends.
Maryann: [Laughs]
Jen: You’re not. I’m not kidding you, I’m 53 I literally have made so many new, beautiful friends these last three years.
Maryann: We’re the same age. When’s your birthday again?
Jen: November 18.
Maryann: Oh, right, you’re a Scorpio. My daughter’s a Scorpio. They’re very intense creatures.
Jen: Intense. Hard on the outside, but very soft on the inside. Ladies, I talk a big game, but I’m very sensitive. So when I talk about these things with friendships, it does destroy me to a certain degree, because I’m very sensitive and I care. I know you care too, Maryann. So it is hard. But it’s all about putting yourself first. You deserve to have healthy, fruitful, wonderful, two-sided, beautiful relationships with other women. Don’t settle for anything less than that. And it’s absolutely, 100-percent possible.
Maryann: That was great. That’s so true. Well, I am grateful for the friendship that we have forged in this short amount of time. And I’m so grateful for you coming on the show and sharing your wit and wisdom. Thank you.
Jen: Thank you for having me. I mean, we could talk for three hours. Maybe we need a secondary podcast to talk about teens and husbands…[Laughs]
Maryann: [Laughs] Let’s get that set up…
Outro: Thank you so much for tuning in to More Beautiful. Please visit Morebeautifulpodcast.com for show notes and bonus content. And it would mean so much if you could subscribe, rate and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you’re listening. See you next week for another great conversation!
