The following is a transcript of this episode. It has been edited for clarity.
Teaser: Chelsea Handler’s done it. So has Kristen Bell. And, of course, writer Michael Pollan wrote an entire book about it. So why is everyone suddenly talking about microdosing, the act of consuming tiny controlled doses of psychedelics such as magic mushrooms? Apparently there’s no tripping involved—just a plethora of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual benefits. If you’re as intrigued as I am, stay tuned because on today’s show, I’m chatting with healer Kayse Gehret, who’s going to tell us everything we always wanted to know about microdosing, but were maybe too afraid or too shy or too nervous to ask. Well, today’s your day to find out everything…
Intro: Welcome to More Beautiful, the podcast for women rewriting the midlife playbook. I’m Maryann LoRusso, and I invite you to join me and a guest each week, as we strive for a life that’s more adventurous, more fulfilling, and more beautiful than ever before.
Welcome back, everyone. I’m here today with Kayse Gehret, founder of Microdosing for Healing in Northern California. Today, we’re going to talk about something that a lot of us are really curious about: the use of psychedelic microdosing for healing. Hey, Kayse, thanks for being here.
Kayse: Thank you so much for having me. I’m happy to be here.
Maryann: I’m really excited for our conversation today. And I’d love to start out by asking you how your career journey brought you to this area of therapeutic psychedelics.
Kayse: That’s a great question. Looking back, if a vote was taken when I was a kid, I would probably have been voted least likely to be doing this work.
Maryann: You and me both.
Kayse: I was a ballet dancer, I was an athlete. I didn’t drink alcohol. You know, I was an ’80s kid. So I kind of grew up with the Nancy Reagan commercials. And then as I entered into my teenage years and early adulthood, I developed a seizure disorder. So the idea of doing high-dose psychedelics was just never interesting to me. And a little scary to me, frankly, because my brain was super sensitive and kind of went off on its own regularly. anyway, I did want to want to add to it. And so yeah, it’s a very, very beautiful, very roundabout path that led me here. I went into the healing arts quite young. I began with somatic therapy, did massage therapy and bodywork for many, many years, had a beautiful practice for about 10 years and then began opening healing art studios. And over the next eight years, we grew and opened for studios in Marin and Sonoma counties, and lots of diverse healing modalities, meditation, yoga, bodywork, some plant medicine, cacao ceremony and sound healing. And serendipitously, I met people who worked with mushroom medicines, who were guides and introduced me to the concept of micro dosing. And I was like, That’s interesting, tell me more. Instead of they explain that, you know, instead of a journey dose where you are, quote, unquote, tripping, and in an altered state of consciousness, it’s taking tiny, tiny doses of mushrooms, to the theory was to achieve the same healing result that a journey might, but doing so in a sub perceptual way. So you’re not altered, you’re not tripping at all, you’re not feeling it. And it’s just kind of like a supplement, per se. So that instantly felt really, really good and aligned to me and I got curious and I really felt aligned with with the person I met, it was just a very serendipitous meeting and timing. And so I began to practice in my own life, kind of outside of my studio life in my professional life. And within weeks, I had noticeable benefits. I’ve studied so many different things in my life, and practice so many different modalities, but there has never been a single modality that I have achieved so much benefit in such a short amount of time. I like I said I had a seizure disorder. From the time I was 19. I had been medicated for it been tested. I went through all the western medicine to try to get to the bottom of what it was, to no avail. Within weeks of microdosing with mushrooms, I have not had a seizure set as incredible for a single aura. And that’s in addition to a whole host of other benefits. So I hold the medicines now. In the context of my healing arts background, I have almost three decades and so the way I, I coach people, I guide people, and I bring people to these medicines now is very much in the context of healing and therapy, and bringing in those various modalities along with the practice of Earth medicines.
Maryann: Wow, that’s so interesting. And I’m so glad that microdosing worked for your seizures. Kayse, the area of therapeutic psychedelics has been getting so much media attention these days. We’re reading about it in the news. We’re seeing it in our entertainment. And I’m thinking very recently about the Nicole Kidman Series Nine Perfect Strangers. We’re hearing about people, particularly in middle age, taking these life transforming trips into the woods to do Ayahuasca. I mean, it’s like, welcome back, 1960s. But as you mentioned, microdosing is very different than taking, as you call them, “journey doses” of a psychedelics. And just to backtrack, microdosing refers to the ingestion of very small amounts of certain psychoactive drugs, most often LSD or psilocybin, the scientific word for magic mushrooms. The idea is that you can trigger a drug’s therapeutic benefits without the side effects, like the ones you mentioned, including hallucinations. Can you tell us more about the difference between taking journey doses and microdosing? We want to hear more about that.
Kayse: Absolutely. It’s so interesting now, because in the modern age, there’s certain parts of the population that have been around on the planet longer have been through the ’60s, and some of them have recreational, they call them experiences in their past. And well, yeah, they do. Yeah, so about half the people I work with, say, you know, I’ve done recreational doses of psychedelics before, but this is the first time I’m really bringing any kind of intention to the process. And then I have a lot of other people and a lot of younger people who this is their first time approaching psychedelics, so they don’t have all this the stigma that they’re bringing to it. So yeah, the difference between a journey and microdosing is not as big as people make it out to be, you know, I think it’s just an arc of experience. Whereas microdosing is wonderful for preparation for a deeper experience. And so we just kind of do things, you know, is we’re so in a time of such extremes, you know, everything is so extreme right now that we go straight to the high dose journey, and the high dose journey is what gets all the attention. But actually microdose seen, it might be new to us now. But in ancient tradition, you know, working with plant medicines was more like a plant diet called a data and center additions, where you, you came into relationship with the plant with the medicine, and you developed and deepened it over time, with practice, culminating in the journey, versus now we go straight, straight to the journey with no experience. So in my mind, they’re not all that different one kind of continues into the other, the biggest difference is, at a certain point, we call it a threshold, typically, you will hit a certain dose or potency, where you start to dip into beyond the threshold where you’re starting to feel perceptual distortion. So micro dosing, when you’re working with micro dosing level, you’re never feeling distorted or altered in any way. You’re below your threshold.
Maryann: I see. And it is something that you need to progress to, like, say you are really scared of, you know, losing control, right? I mean, is it does it kind of end at a certain point, or does it have to go all the way?
Kayse: No, no, some people [microdose] with the intention of just microdosing always. But what happens often is that people even people who are nervous about working at higher doses, once they get into relationship with the medicines, and they start microdosing, they have such beautiful benefits across the spectrum. You become less nervous, you become more confident yourself trusting in the medicine. And you just are called to go deeper. That was certainly me. When I started, I had no interest in doing a high dose journey or tripping. But it was over the course of a long, many, many, many months of of microdosing practice. I was drawn to to do higher dose journeys.
Maryann: Who is your average client these days? And what kinds of benefits are they hoping to gain from microdosing?
Kayse: It’s so diverse at this point. So in our community, which is nationwide across the United States, the age range is 19 to 91. And people microcode for very diverse reasons: to [improve] their mental health (especially right now, post pandemic), to [achieve] emotional balance, spiritual connection, to reconnect with the planet and nature and also for physical healing—especially cognitive brain benefits. And also we have a lot of women coming for hormonal and menstrual related imbalances too.
Maryann: Yes, we’re gonna get into that later. I just want to go circle back and ask you: We hear so much about creative people using psychedelics to get into flow, or take their work to a new level, does this work with microdosing as well?
Kayse: Yes, well, the way psychedelics work is they quiet the default mode network. So that’s kind of our held our everyday operating system of our brains. So the more structured we are, the more we go about our days, just the familiar, we get into these rigid patterns of doing, and psychedelics, quiet that operating system, and allow new neural networks to light up, if you will. And so you can connect different dots make different pathways, it makes your perspective different, wider, more expansive, in many ways. And so that’s why when we get out of our routine, just a good example, as we tend to have just in our day to day life, we tend to have our most creative ideas, when we’re outside of our day to day life, like we’re driving into middle locations never been to we’re in the shower. Right? Right that, because I think we turn off that thinking brain, you know, we actually turn off our mind a little bit, turn off our thoughts, our standard thought patterns, like those ruminating loops and narratives that we go over and over and over. And we’ll be quiet that down. All of this new connections can be made. And so everybody has this creativity in them. It’s just some of us are very, very mental, mentally heavy people. And so quieting that down, whether with microdosing, or journey work, you see things in new ways. And you see problems in new light. And so that’s why in all of the research they’ve done on the high dose studies, a lot of it was in the ’60s around creativity and engineers, and innovation and problem solving for that reason.
Maryann: Right. And you said that many people in midlife are coming to you to seek a greater sense of purpose and microdosing can assist with that. How so?
Kayse: Yes, very much so. When we were growing up, in the 1980s or whenever, people were led on a certain track: You go to college, and then you get a job, and you have a family. And so a lot of people who are now in their 50s, 60s and 70s come in and they’re like, I’ve done all the things. But there’s still something undone with my life. And that thing that’s undone is them expressing themselves truly in the world, versus kind of the person and identity that they were conditioned to become. And so a lot of them are coming to get back in touch with themselves, their spirits, their purpose…because they don’t know what that is. But they want to find out. And so by using Earth medicines, again, we kind of turn off that conditioned part of our brain, that identity part of ourselves, and we get back in touch with the spiritual side of ourselves.
Maryann: It’s so ingrained in so many of us, right?
Kayse: Oh, yes.
Maryann: I think that for many people becoming more open is a common development that happens with age. I think that as we age, we either become more closed off, or become more open to things and [adopt] a growth mindset. I think choosing the latter is so important to aging. Do you agree with that? And can psychedelics help you [achieve] that feeling of you openness and expansion?
Kayse: So well said, yes! I think it’s one of the keys to aging well and and beauty to frankly, and happiness is the more we kind of can continually expose our brain to new ideas, new insight and growing and expansion. It’s Yes, it benefits all of those aspects of self. So I see That’s so beautifully in our, our community members who are in their 70s and 80s. Now, a lot of times they come for the brain benefits. Honestly, they come for the physical benefits. First, they’re starting to forget things or memories starting to go, they’re slowing down, they can’t do crossword puzzles, like they used to be able to do. Yes, or we see a lot of brain fog. So it’s very common with autoimmune conditions, aging, also long tail COVID, with a lot of people that still have brain fog. And so older people tend to come for the cognitive benefits, but and they received those beautifully, with microdosing. But then they also start to have those opening where they’re less rigid, they’re less stuck in their ways and ways of doing things, their emotional capacity becomes greater. And so those are the things that we really see long term making such a meaningful, impactful difference in their lives and in their relationships.
Maryann: Must be so cool for you, as a practitioner to see people soften from this. How does that make you feel?
Kayse: It’s amazing. One of the things we wondered when we first started because it was it was during the pandemic that we began, and it so it’s all virtual, we, you know, we meet all over the country virtually. And it was like, very different than what I was used to work in one on one with people or in groups for many, many years in the studios. But you can’t I mean, you can see people change, even on Zoom, which is so beautiful people become more open, lighter, energetically, they’re lighter. Many, many people physically become lighter, with practice over months. And so yeah, it’s really, really beautiful to see them shift. And that’s, that’s one of the hearts and keys to healing with naturally. And with earth messages. It’s as you heal inwardly, and shift your energy inside you, the external life starts to manifest to match that resonance. So all of this, I think, is we’re just starting to understand the nature of energetics and residents in our health and in our healing. But we’re gonna see much, much, much more of that in the next decade or two.
Maryann: I’m curious about that. How does that work? What’s the theory behind nature’s drugs working to heal your body, particularly when it comes to you know, stuff like, like you mentioned, the brain fog, the inflammation, the perimenopause symptoms, all that stuff? What is the theory behind it?
Kayse: It depends on who at you know, so science is studying it from typically focused on the serotonin receptors. So psilocybin specifically binds to that receptor. So that is why anti people who are on antidepressants, it’s, it’s a variable, and we’ll probably get to talking about that, because that’s a big issue too. So it psilocybin attaches to that same serotonin receptor. So much of scientific inquiry to psilocybin has been around brain science, and its effect on the brain and its effect on the serotonin receptors in the brain. However, we have serotonin receptors all throughout our gut. And there’s actually many more serotonin receptors in our gut than there are in the brain. It’s just that’s where all the scientific focus has been thus far. Right now we know what science focuses on, which is the brain science and receptors, versus what we have seen and from what we have seen anecdotally and people is, I think there’s something in working with psychedelics that shifts our resonance to a lighter, resonant. So without getting to fixie now. But good. So I think what we’re going to find, in years coming is that as you shift your resonance, we’re getting lighter and lighter from an evolutionary standpoint.
Maryann: Actually, physically lighter?
Kayse: Yes, yes, in future incarnations of human beings. And right now, we have a lot of density in our bodies, and Earth medicines help us shift into a lighter resonance. So these are things that science isn’t there yet. You know, these are things that yeah,
Maryann: I just gotta say, maybe we’re becoming less dense, but I can’t imagine us becoming lighter in terms of pounds, because we kind of seem to be going the other way. I mean, you saw Wally, right?
Kayse: It’s just something that we’ve seen over and over where it’s unmistakable that once people practice, they do become much energetically lighter. You can feel it in people, you can see it in them. So there’s something to that. And I think that’s why one of the things that’s really really common that we see in our community once people practice, the most sensitive beings in our life are the first to notice the shift in us, before other people do. Children also notice. Animals notice too. A lot of people report their interactions with their pets are completely different after they start mushroom practice.
Maryann: How does that change? Do you start talking to your dog?
Kayse: It’s more that your your pets’ response to you changes, because you are different. And I think it has something to do with our loss of lose density…Sorry, we’re getting really weird here. [Laughs]
Maryann: I promise, everybody, we’re not doing psychedelics right now. [laughs]
Kayse: From what we have witnessed as people get lighter, you know, and lose density. Density is the vibration of fear. And that is where we’re coming from, over the last, you know, hundreds of years, and we’re moving into a different vibration.
Maryann: I believe in the vibration thing, absolutely.
Kayse: We’re in this weird, interesting, fascinating point in the arc of human history, where like, we’re on the edge, right? We’re kind of on the bridge of these two times. So we have both, we have both going on. And I think animals, animals only have been conditioned to fear us, because they’re reacting to the fear that is in us. And as we become less fearful, and hold less fear in us. animals respond to us completely differently. It’s just like some people like babies are drawn to you. And children are drawn to you. So people over and over again, we hurt people, especially this is true with with men. After they practice. They’re like, you know, my dog has never gone to me. Like he goes to the kids, he goes to my wife, we just kind of pass like chips in the house. And he’s just never been bothered with me. And they start micro dosing. And within weeks. They’re like, the dog just wants to be with me all the time. And just saying nothing to me. And, yeah, we have so many amazing wild animal stories. Once people become practicing.
Maryann: That’s a book. There’s a book in there. I love it. OK, so let’s get to the nitty gritty because I think a lot of people out there are hearing all this. They’re saying, hmm, I want some of that. So if someone wants to try microdosing, what is the actual procedure? Do you conduct an interview to see if they’re a good fit? Do you put clients on a schedule? How are the drugs administered? Take us through the procedure.
Kayse: Yes, the nitty gritty, I’m happy to. It’s such a unique experience for each person. Your arc, your path, your dose is going to be unique to you, we roughly have an idea of dosing. So in terms of mushrooms, decide but that we will use typically the micro dosing ranges, everything for anything from 50 milligrams up to 300 milligrams, but within that range, it’s going to be unique to each person. And so when people work with us, there’s an application to give a little bit of info about their background history, if they have any experience if they’re on any other pharmaceutical medications, which is relevant in some cases. And then we teach people to grow. So with an art course program, we teach people how to cultivate your own mushrooms. And most people are delighted in how easy and simple it is. So some people think that they grow outside in a greenhouse. No, it’s, they’re very tiny. And you just need, like the size of a shoebox is really all you need. And so that we love teaching cultivation because it really empowers people to cultivate a relationship with their own medicines. It makes it you know, it’s the safest option. It’s the most accessible option. It’s really cost effective to do that over time. And there’s something really it’s kind of like growing your own herb garden or your own food in your yard is growing your own medicine.
Maryann: Yeah, I’ve seen those little kits. Suddenly, you know, you’re mentioning mushrooms and you got me thinking of the movie Phantom Thread. Did you see it? You don’t want to grow those mushrooms, right?
Kayse: Yes, yes. [laughs]
Maryann: Sorry, I just had to say that [laughs]. OK, so your clients are actually growing their own mushrooms…You primarily use mushrooms, not LSD, right?
Kayse: I only work with mushrooms. But yes, there are so many different medicines that people can microdose. But the two we hear about most with microdosing…are psilocybin mushrooms or LSD.
Maryann: OK, so you’re using the mushrooms. Do your clients always grow them at home? Or do they buy them from you? And how do you take it from a mushroom to medicine?
Kayse: Yes, so yes, the mushrooms magic mushrooms in their natural state are the medicine, but because of legality. So right now, we’re in this, like ever evolving legal landscape with mushrooms. So dialing back to the 50s and the 60s for it’s a very long story, but the short version is because of political reasons. And when Nixon was running,
Maryann: So we’re going way back…[laughs]
Kayse: That is how psilocybin was originally put on the schedule one, it was classified as a schedule one drug and it remains there. Unfortunately, it has no business, it does not qualify as a Schedule One all of the criteria for schedule one drug, meaning it is harmful. It can cause death. It is highly addictive. Like all the criteria, it doesn’t meet any of those criteria. But it still somehow landed on the schedule one list,
Maryann: Was that the first war on drugs?
Kayse: Yes it was. And it was two. Yes. So cannabis, and psychedelics were both Yes. For very political reasons. And unfortunately, remain there today. So there is a nationwide movement all over the United States called decriminalization, and it’s different than legalization. But you know, some states are legalizing some cities and states are decriminalizing. So we’re in this moment where it’s still illegal. In some jurisdictions, and then and others, it’s decriminalized, and then some, it’s legal. So as long as we’re in this kind of evolving landscape, growing your own, depending on where you are, will have different, you know, places or decrease some places or not. But to me, it’s it really empowers people, you know, at the grassroots level to grow your own medicines. Unfortunately, you know, not everybody can put a chemistry lab in there to make other medicines, but everybody can grow mushrooms. You know, they’re there from the earth
Maryann: So it’s legal here in California, right? Where else?
Kayse: No, it’s not.
Maryann: Oh, why did I think it was? Maybe because marijuana is legal.
Kayse: Yeah. And so a lot of people in the field have looked to cannabis and the way cannabis evolved. For there’s some cautionary tales, and there’s some good practices to learn from both. But really empowering people to to grow their own, I think is the best long term solution until things evolve more politically, and the laws catch up with the science. Because we don’t, a lot of us in the field are somewhat, you know, ahead of the law or the landscape. Because we see that we just as a human species can’t wait. You know, any longer the mental health epidemic being what it is the planet crisis being what it is, this is coming up now for a reason. And I think it’s nature’s way to give us some tools to to help save ourselves from ourselves, in many ways. So in California, Oakland and Santa Cruz are decriminalized. They came very, very close to decriminalizing statewide last year. Right. Maybe that’s it? I’m thinking yeah, yes, it came very, very close and hopefully next year, but so far, Oregon and Colorado are the two states that have as a state decriminalized so far.
Maryann: So how do these legalities affect your job? I mean, I would imagine you have to be careful.
Kayse: The reason I can be so public about my work is because I’m not growing. I’m not providing medicines. So that’s where people get into trouble is where they’re trying to retail it. No, there are people retailing it like if you go on Instagram, which I assure to not recommend. I mean, that’s all Just without saying, right, but they’re out there. They’re out there. And so yes, growing your own is really, really the best option. But I can be so public about my work. And I feel it’s so important to be public about this work is because we normalize it, the more people that are out and talking about it, and I talk about my experience and how much it is healed my life and been meaningful to me, really helps normalize this for other people. So I am just guiding, teaching and educating people.
Maryann: That was my next question. So you’re providing the guidance? That’s essentially where you come in, right?
Kayse: Exactly.
Maryann: In terms of the dosages, do you help clients with that? Because you don’t want anybody taking too much?
Kayse: Yes, we know, roughly, the guidelines that I shared earlier are kind of for mushrooms, the general ballpark of, of dosage that most people will fall into for micro dosing. So we always follow the adage, like, start slow, start low and go slow, and lower than you think you might need. And you can always work your way up.
Maryann: OK, great. And then while your clients are experiencing that, I mean, how often are they taking the medicine? And how often do they check in with you? And is there some form of therapy that takes place in between?
Kayse: Yes, so our programs are a part education and part community. So there’s an online course that offers a lot of guidance along the way. And that’s a self-guided course that they track along. And then we have weekly meetings. So our community from all over the country comes together, and some people are just starting out, and other people have been part of the community now for almost two years. So you can see people with a range of experience and backgrounds. The protocol, which is kind of the dose recommendation, is something that’s evolving so much, because this is such a new practice…and we’re learning a lot as we go. So I have partners who are doctors and pharmacists…When we started, because of the Western framework that we’re operating in, we’re so wired for the prescription-style dosing where you take your amount, it stays the same, you take it every day, and you do it for years. And we have found that that’s absolutely the opposite of the way Earth medicines work. So the goal of microdosing is to not to need to microdose anymore, because as you heal, you heal once and for all. It’s not the drug that’s keeping you in the holding pattern, and providing you the benefits you’re actually healing from within. So to use myself as an example. I don’t worry at all anymore about having certain seizures when I’m not microdosing. And I did it first, you know, because I was curious, like, OK, when I stop and I take a break for a while, will they come back? But they’ve never come back. And I don’t worry that they’re going to come back. And that’s what we see is when people heal things. With mushroom practice, they don’t have to keep microdosing. So typically, to answer your question, most people start with four days on, three day off, or five and two. So four or five days a week you’re dosing, and you’re taking two or three days a week off.
Maryann: The idea that you don’t have to be on a medication for life is so liberating, because there are so many people taking so many prescription drugs and long term and God only knows what the side effects are and other ramifications. But Casey, are there short term benefits with microdosing? Like you mentioned some of the magnificent long term benefits? Is there anything that we would feel initially like just from doing it once or twice? Yeah, what is that?
Kayse: Typically, the cognitive benefits are the first thing that comes in for people. Typically, within the first week or two people really, really notice a clarity in their energy and their mind. They’re more articulate, they’re more in flow, their energy is just more uplifted and steady. other senses are dialed up a bit. So just everything is a bit clearer and sharper. Your sense of smell, your sense of taste. So it’s beautiful in that a lot of people come in and they’re nervous, right? Like I work with a lot of people who have kids, or they’re CEOs and they have a lot of responsibility and they’re like, I can’t be weird. Like I can’t be altered. I have to have my stuff together all the time. And so that’s part of what draws them to microdosing: They get to be curious, but they are reassured that they’re not going to feel distorted or altered in any way. But still, the first days and weeks they’re alone. Little nervous, but as soon as they start, within a week, typically, you notice that not only do you not feel weird, you actually feel like a better version of yourself.
Maryann: Wow. Do different personality types experience psychedelics differently?
Kayse: Very much so.
Maryann: Give us some examples. Without naming names. [laughs]
Kayse: Yes, absolutely. So just in the most general sense, we’ve noticed a distinct pattern: The more kind of open people are, the process tends to be very, very fast. And when I say open, sometimes that’s like people’s innate nature, they’re just kind of like, go-with-the-flow people, you know, the people that when you’re out with them, they’re like, whatever you want, you know…I work with a lot of artists tend to be very open, they tend to move very, very quickly through their process or their healing process and connect right away. On the other end of the spectrum, people who are very, very rigid, very structured…People [who need things to be] to be a certain way [or are] judgmental…It’s not that they don’t have a good experience with mushrooms, it just tends to take longer. And interestingly, they tend to need a higher dose to get the same effects. So it’s really interesting, because it’s so different than pharmaceuticals, which is based on your body type and body size and density. With microdosing, it’s more that your spiritual nature informs your dose.
Maryann: Yeah, that is so important. What about creative control freaks? What if you have both? I’m not speaking from, you know, any personal experience or anything…
Kayse: Yeah, so we’ve had plenty of those too. [laughs]
Maryann: You said something to me when we had our first call. You said that artists and [other creative types] don’t need a lot. And that probably the Beatles could have gotten away with taking much less.
Kayse: Yes.
Maryann: So what can actually be achieved through microdosing, versus what some people imagine, or want the experience to be? Do you ever have to manage people’s expectations?
Kayse: Yes, I think that’s one of the things that we work with people on, especially in the beginning: differentiating between intention and expectation. Our expectations tend to get in the way of things very frequently. We’re so impatient. And we’re so hard on ourselves to, you know, work with a lot of people who, you know, because they’re called to this practice, there are people who are very proactive about taking care of themselves and bettering themselves, but they’re so hard on themselves in the process, and they just expect, you know, things tend to happen so quickly. And so, really developing simultaneously. A lot of gratitude, a lot of compassion, a lot of patience. And we always teach people to hold credit and intention, but hold it very loosely. Because that’s part of the magic is when we kind of strangle and expect so much in life. You know, the mat, the magic has no room to come in and inform our life. And so a lot of times when people just surrender, hold their intention, surrender to what is meant to be surrender to divine timing, oftentimes six months or a year from now they look back and their lives are so different. And not only the they met their intention, but it’s so far beyond their expectation and they rose, like, if I like plumb too tightly to an expectation, I would have shorted myself. Then what was possible for me, right, yeah.
Maryann: So is there any other way that you encourage clients to prepare for this experience or to do in conjunction with microdosing so that they make the overall experience better?
Kayse: Yes, yes, we’ve noticed a huge difference. Positive difference when people do simultaneous practices, embodiment practices are big. So massage therapy, yoga, Qigong, movement, breath, work, things that move the body and move your energy are really, really supportive, also purifying processes. So this has been really, really fascinating. So many people stopped drinking alcohol, and they started, practice it has really been incredible to see some people come in without intention. Especially during the pandemic, people were like, I’m leaning on the wine a little too hard. And one of my intentions is to to not do that so much. But so many people. Again, I think it’s the shift in the resonance. Mushrooms really inspire this lighter, higher vibration and people and so they just naturally they want to drink less alcohol, eat less meat, their diet really shifts and changes. And so preceding practice, and in the first weeks, it’s really, really helpful to change your diet in that way. So we have people limit their drinking, limit their dairy intake, their meat intake, and that seems really supportive of the process, too.
Maryann: So a little bit of a detox. Can there be side effects to microdosing? We know people aren’t full blown tripping. But Can anything go wrong? Or can anything happen? That would be disappointing? What do you think?
Kayse: So far from what we have seen is also what the science has shown, there are very few side effects. Psilocybin mushrooms are incredibly safe, really, especially when microdosing there’s very, very few contraindications. So on the medication contraindications, the only one that has been shown is lithium is really the only medication. Antidepressants are a little tricky. It’s not that people cannot microdose it’s because certain families of antidepressants play on the same receptor, blunt the effect of mushroom practice. So a lot of people are coming to practice because they wish to taper off their pharmaceutical medications. And so it’s possible, it just is a little bit more of a process and involved and takes a bit longer. And we have a pharmacist who supports us in our program to consults for people who are intending to taper off. But really, I’d say if if people don’t have a good experience, it’s typically expectations. Like you said, it’s things don’t happen fast enough and dramatic enough for them, their expectations are too high on that front. And also sometimes people who aren’t used to feeling and so the way mushrooms work is that they actually bring things to the surface, versus antidepressants do the opposite. They suppress and repress feelings. And so sometimes people aren’t used to feeling so much.
Maryann: Yeah, it’s the opposite of what our culture has taught us today. Absolutely.
Kayse: Absolutely. And so for people that’s, that’s foreign to them to really feel the full spectrum of human emotion that can take some getting used to.
Maryann: Yeah, well, OK, you can blame first of all, for all those, you know, expectations. You can blame Nicole Kidman for that because they’re not going to be frolicking through the forest screaming microdosing. But is there anybody who shouldn’t try it? Like someone who’s on really, really crucial medications for a terminal illness, for example? Or is there anyone?
Kayse: Yeah, I mean, there’s very few. Pharmaceutical contraindications. We’re learning all the time of Jim Fadiman, who is has been studying since the 60s he’s he’s been in the field, he and his research partner have developed a really, really wonderful resource of citizen science of 1000s 1000s of people who have microdose, with their medication, and self reported their results. And so that is a really, really wonderful reference for people all over the country to utilize that, to check their medications and supplements against it. The only time I really caution people to to hold off is when people are so in the thick of like the raw emotion of transition or grief, because mushrooms tend to amplify our emotions. You know, one of the questions I ask people, if they’re already feeling really challenged emotionally, or going through a really, really difficult time, I’ll ask them, Can you imagine what you’re currently feeling now? intensifying even more? And if the answer is absolutely no, I’m already right at my edge. That’s a good time to do all the other prepper preparatory practices first, and maybe not start the practice now you can start the nervous system regulation and the embodiment practices the breath work now and prepare yourself for it. But wait until you can handle your emotions coming up even more. So typically, that’s something like people come and they are, you know, right in the thick of a divorce. or they just lost a loved one. And they’re really, really in the throes of grief. So that’s really soon. Yeah, that’s been the primary contraindication that I have seen. Yeah,
Maryann: Yes, and just to be clear, this is not a DIY thing, right? We talked about growing our own mushrooms. But if someone wants to do this, they should definitely get a practitioner to guide them through the process. Right? What credentials or experience should someone look for?
Kayse: That’s a great question. I get that all the time. Because they’re like, their mushrooms are everywhere. Like, why can I just do this alone? You know, and you did it alone? And like, like, Yeah, I did it alone, because I had to know anyone. And so yeah, I mean, a lot of when you talk to people who are working in the field, now, a lot of us created what we created, because it’s what we wish we would have had, you know, so when I moved through my microdosing process, I knew I was having things were happening. But the whole way, I was like, Is this normal? What is going on? And so I created my program to help people answer those same questions that I had when I was moving through the process. And it’s really valuable to be in community. And in a group, you learn so much, and there’s this amplification that happens, it’s kind of like that, when you’re at a concert, you know, the difference between watching, you know, listen to music at home, and then being in watching live music in a crowd, or meditating with a group versus meditating at home, there’s this amplification that happens and you move and transform that much faster when you’re in a concentrated community and group together, which is beautiful. So, yes, you can’t I mean, you can microdose on your own. But it’s so much, you will get so much more out of it with support and education and company. When it comes to journey guides. Yes. So definitely, definitely, definitely, if anyone is listening, who is interested, who’s like, read the books and watch the Netflix documentary, and is really called to do a journey. It’s really valuable to begin with microdosing to really spend a lot of time preparing your body, mind and spirit. And then yes, there are guides who many have been working doing this work underground. And then now as legalization and decriminalization is happening, there are actually above ground training programs being developed, where people can go and learn how to be a psychedelic guide and facilitator. Oh,
Maryann: Anyone out there looking for a new career path? Keep that in mind.
Kayse: It’s such an exciting time. Yeah, but you definitely want someone who has a lot of experience and a lot of personal experience with the medicine because it’s it’s one of those things you you cannot learn in a book. You cannot just learn it a book. Yeah,
Maryann: OK, well, good answer. I just want to address the research for a minute, because over the past couple decades, research on psychedelics has steadily increased. There is now a center for psychedelic medicine at New York University, and it focuses on researching the clinical potential of these psychedelics. Casey, do you find the creation of NYU is department encouraging? And do you see any new research coming down the pipeline?
Kayse: Absolutely, yes, there are so many colleges and universities that are adding psychedelic research centers right now. Yeah, it’s really, really wonderful. There’s more and more funding, going toward research. We have to credit the veteran community has really been at the forefront. Oh, I know that. Yes. Yes. The veterans community has really been strong supporters of the psychedelic movement and really meaningful when engaging with law enforcement, politicians, the government, because the veteran community is kind of one group that everybody can get behind. Bars, right. And so they have really been instrumental in moving things forward in terms of academia and the government process. So yes, it’s super exciting. Most of the research to date has focused on the high dose, psilocybin experience versus micro dosing. And that’s for several reasons. One, I think micro dosing is really, really difficult to study in traditional scientific methods with blinding and placebo because, right, there’s so many factors. When we’re microdosing, we’re in our day-to-day lives, like it’s one thing to do a high dose journey for eight hours in a lab in a closed room in a contained setting. You know, and we can’t do that with micro dosing over the course of a month. We have so many other factors. And so at the end of a month after micro dosing, when we’re asking people to report on their emotions, you know, there’s, there’s the emotions that are affected by the mushrooms, but there’s emotions that are affected by all kinds of other factors. And so it’s really hard to blind people’s experience.
Maryann: It’s hard to tease that out right and separate it. Yeah. Well, you just hit on my next question was, you know that there are some critics of micro dosing who argue that the results are anecdotal, that the placebo effect or an expectancy effect involved? And you just explained why that makes sense. So hopefully, I mean, I don’t know if someone’s got to think of something in some way to measure, right? The impact?
Kayse: Yes, yes. It’s something that comes up a lot. Because as you know, as you referenced earlier, when we first began talking, like, it’s so in the news now, and it wasn’t years ago, it’s just now that and so it’s funny when, you know, articles would come out and Newsweek and Forbes and New York Times, and these these big, no well known publications, inferring that it might be placebo. You know, it was funny to watch people in our community, it’s a reaction to that, you know, they were very defensive of the mushrooms down there, they, and at the end of the day, it doesn’t, you know, if people are healing, and people’s lives are being meaningfully change, you know, placebo has always been part of medicine, always. And so important to our healing process, no matter what we’re healing from. And so if positive outlook and intention is part of that result, so be it. So be it right.
Maryann: Can you give us an example of a woman in midlife who used microdosing to great effect?
Kayse: Oh, so, so many.
Maryann: Really?
Kayse: Yes, yes, all what you just mentioned, many I and many women come for perimenopause, menopause, eating disorders, extreme period symptoms PMDD. And have had wonderful results. Especially I mean, some are just astonishing, especially around PMDD. If PMDD, for those who don’t know, is a really extreme form of PMS. Where women are, the way they describe it is their first two weeks of their cycle. And their second two weeks of their cycle. They are two totally different people. And they almost can’t function. They are work. They can’t, you know, their relationships are really challenging. Within weeks of microdosing, some of them they can no longer there, their cycles are the same. They can’t tell the difference between the two weeks, and the second two weeks anymore.
Maryann: Interesting. That sounds worse than menopause.
Kayse: Yes. So hasn’t been a lot of research done. Because, again, I think that research and academia tend to focus on things that can be turned into a pill. So they’re focusing on diagnosable conditions versus “women’s issues” which are [grossly] underfunded and understudied.
Maryann: Oh, yeah. We talked about podcasts. Not even funny. Yeah,
Kayse: So we’re, it’s, you know, as we do, you know, we learn a lot just from women talking to women and women practicing together. And so yes, we’ve seen really amazing results for PMS. Menopause headaches is another big, big one that many women come in and suffer from debilitating headaches is very common. And just also the amount of stress that women carry. In modern society. Like it’s so overwhelming, especially right now post pandemic, after moving through parenting, and homeschooling and women carried the majority of the burden of the pandemic changes and alterations and trying to work from home and balance and having to space. So there’s been so much and so one of the things we have seen is, mushroom practice really helps you develop a deeper emotional mastery and resilience. So you have this ability to negotiate, you know what used to be irritating, it’s not that people’s behavior isn’t irritating anymore, like you can see what it is. But it doesn’t impact you as much.
Maryann: You can’t stop them, but you can change your reaction to them.
Kayse: Yes. And it’s just changing your energy and your vibration. Is it as an impact, you know, is one of the the people in our community describe that they’re like, I just have a spiritual spine that I didn’t have before. I love that. Yeah, it was such a beautiful way to say it, and everybody just kind of nodded because I guess that’s exactly it. And so you see, you see behavior and things are what it is, but it’s not triggering to you in the same way and so people articulate there’s more of them. buffer between what happens and your reaction to it. And so that really shifts everything, your relationship with your spouse, your parenting and your presence and ability to be there with your kids. So that sounds
Maryann: So nice. I once heard someone say, “Be the love in the room.” When you walk into a room, try to be that source of love and compassion, and it just makes everybody else around you, you know, feel better. And I try to remember that, but I forget most of the time.
Kayse: That’s it. No, you just said, you have to keep working at it. It is. And that’s why when I say that people shift with practice, it’s that unspoken energy that you bring into a room that people don’t know, it’s not what you’re saying, that’s not what you’re doing. It’s just your presence. And, you know, one of the things we’ve seen is, you know, typically, when people are partnered, and they come to practice, I always ask them, like, where’s your partner, like, how’s your husband feel about this? And a lot of times, people are supportive, but they’re kind of like, you know, I have no interest. But you, you, I love you, I support you, you go do this thing. I cannot tell you how many times a woman starts practicing. And within a few months, the most skeptical, disinterested spouse comes around and wants to start practicing. I can and they’re like, really like, you, are you and they say, I just You are so different. Like you feel you’re still the same person, but you just feel different to be around you.
Maryann: And I want what she’s having.
Kayse: Yeah, you could walk into a room and people know it.
Maryann: You have definitely piqued my interest—and I’m like the least likely girl in the world to even think about it. But I’m thinking about it. [laughs] Casey, this has been so much fun. If any of our listeners would like to learn more about psychedelics and microdosing, where would you suggest they go? And can you tell us where to find you?
Kayse: I’m happy to. One thing I would love to encourage people to do is Joe. Like, there’s so much information on the internet. And if you just like a dive into like, read it in the chat rooms, and so it can get really, really overwhelming. Reading quickly.
Maryann: Everything you search online either either causes cancer or immediate death.
Kayse: So I think yeah, just just slow down. Be curious, be interested in talk to people in the field, you know, connect with people that are practicing is the best way to go. There are some wonderful books, we have a great reading list. That’s part of all of our programs that are out there. There’s some great documentaries on Netflix. Now I highly recommend if you’re brand new to psychedelics, to check out Michael Pollan’s how to change your mind documentary on Netflix is a really incredible introduction for people, especially for people who are, you know, lived through the 60s and still carrying a lot of stigma around psychedelics. That’s a really good introduction. And then you can find me online at microdosing for healing.com. And on our website, we have lots of free resources and information and a complimentary workshop where I cover all the beginner questions that we received from people new to practice.
Maryann: That is so great, and we’ll put the book links and all of Kayse’s links in the show notes as well at more beautiful podcast.com. Kayse, thank you so much for being here. This was really fun and enlightening, and I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Outro: Thank you so much for tuning into More Beautiful. Please visit Morebeautifulpodcast.com for show notes and bonus content. And it would mean so much if you could subscribe, rate and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you’re listening. See you next week for another great conversation.
