40. Thriving In an Empty Nest

The following is a transcript of this episode. It has been edited for clarity.

Intro: Hey guys, today we’re talking about thriving in an empty nest. Whether you’ve got teens who are starting to think about college or your children have already left home, this can be an emotional time for both them and you, which is why I’ve got therapist Emily Pardy on the show to guide you through this life transition and help you cope with all the change it brings. And we’re going to talk about how this is a big opportunity for you, not only to build an exciting new relationship with your kids, but to embrace all the freedom and fun that lie ahead for you as what some are calling a “free bird.” Welcome to More Beautiful, the podcast for women rewriting the midlife playbook. I am Maryann LoRusso, and I invite you to join me and a guest each week as we strive for a life that’s more adventurous, more fulfilling, and more beautiful than ever before.

Maryann: Hi everybody, my guest today is Emily Pardy, a licensed marriage and family therapist and the founder and CEO of Empty Nest Counseling in Nashville. Hey, Emily, welcome to the show.

Emily: Hi, thanks so much for having me.

Maryann: Listen, Emily, as many of us know, empty nest syndrome refers to the grief many parents feel when their kids move out of the family home. Why did you decide to focus your work on this stage of life?

Emily: You know, I love milestones. And as I look in my own life and the lives of my friends, colleagues, family around me, there are so many milestones throughout our life that are natural or normal, and we see it on the horizon, but we don’t stop and pause and think about the ripple effect of how many facets of our life are affected by these milestones. So I had first founded ready nest counseling, which was entering into parenthood, and we really address those topics of entering, becoming a new parent, pregnancy, postpartum. And seeing the end cap of empty nest, it seems so obvious, right? We all have heard the term empty nest, we know it’s coming. If you’re a parent, you already, even holding a baby in your arms, are thinking about sending them off to college or launching them someday. And that will happen, you know, and we want to do it successfully. And so just because it goes well doesn’t mean it isn’t stressful. We often hear about losing ourselves in our motherhood or throughout our children’s lives. And I think finally, it’s getting the recognition it deserves, that this milestone is difficult. It affects finances, sex life, marriage, communication, boundaries, friendships, all these things that are really difficult to navigate anyway. And this lens brings focus to this huge milestone of exiting active parenting, into transitioning into adult relationships in a really beautiful way. And we really want to focus on doing that well and thriving through that season, so you can enjoy it and not just survive it.

Maryann: It’s all about life transitions, right? And as we know, empty nest tends to be more common in women than in men, and some women are more susceptible than others to feeling this loss that you described. What kinds of circumstances do you think make it harder for parents to let go when their children fly off?

Emily: Oh, so many. I mean, life brings us stressors as is. So just like in any other phase, if finances are a stressor, if your marriage is a stressor, you know, that’s all gonna be magnified when you are presented with this really emotional issue. And a lot of times we distract ourselves with our children, we busy our lives with their activities. And when we step into the next phase of removing that, then we’re suddenly very vulnerable and very exposed, left with who we are, right? And if you don’t know who you are, and you don’t have security in your relationships, or your friendships, or your activities by yourself and your own interests, then you’re kind of left with this big question mark, which you end up grieving as well. So transitioning into that phase is really what I call a crossroads of grief and anxiety. And even one of those things is worth going to counseling for, right, but when you have the crossroads of those, it can be so difficult that we translate it as, oh, I’m grieving the loss of my child being around. But it’s so much bigger than that. You know, a lot of that empty space is actually grieving the loss of who I was when my child was around. And so then when that is exposed and we shed light on that, and we don’t know, oh, man, now, what fills my time? Now, what fills my purpose? Now, what fills my energy? And you’re left with kind of these big question marks that we have to start to answer.

Maryann: I’m glad you brought up all those factors that contribute to this, because a lot of people assume that only women who stayed at home with their kids experience empty nest syndrome. But it can happen to working moms, too.

Emily: Absolutely, yes. Our children come first. So even if you’re a working mom, you’re still heavily engaged in parenting. I think stay at home moms, their work is just different, you know? You’re really not necessarily interacting with your children any more or less whether you work outside the home. So it’s an emotional separation, right? And we all know what that’s like, it’s a sort of, you don’t you don’t know what you got till it’s gone kind of thing. You get a rhythm and a routine, and suddenly, the absence of it becomes louder than when it was actually in your life.

Maryann: Right. I read this somewhere, and I thought it was fascinating. I read that psychologists say it takes between 18 months and two years to make a successful transition after an empty nest. What are some of the symptoms that you would say are most common that women feel during this time? Or even in the time leading up to their youngest surrogate leaving?

Emily: Absolutely. We see a lot of what we’d call anticipation anxiety. So sometimes the anticipation, that senior year, visiting the colleges or helping them decide on a major, some of these things…It’s a paradox, right? You’re excited for them and also scared, and you know more than they do, even though they might not admit it. [Laughs]

Maryann: They will never admit it.

Emily: They will never admit it, no. And it’s a whole new adventure, right? We can’t wholly apply our own experience as if it will be their experience, right? These are new individuals that we’re launching into the world. And so sometimes our fears aren’t their fears. Sometimes we’re worried about their social life, and they’re excited to start over and make new friends. And so we have to really be in communication with your child and not project what you’re fearful of, or what your experience was, into what they’re hoping for, or what their fears are. They definitely have fears, they just might not know exactly how to talk about them, or what they might be exactly. But in that anticipation phase, communication is really key. And as you then step through the actions of bringing your child to their new home, to their new life, helping them set up that, continuing to then decide on boundaries and consistency of like, what are your expectations of how often they should communicate with you or call you. Do you feel good about the rhythm we’re currently practicing about texting or being in touch? And trying to just kind of let your child also set the pace of like, look, I don’t want to be intrusive. And also, I’m always going to be interested in what you’re doing. And that this is trial and error. That you’re learning, too. And I feel like a lot of times, our kids expect us to just, like, know how this will roll, and they forget that I don’t know what I’m doing either, honey.

Maryann: We’re all winging it.

Emily: Yes. And that’s OK. There’s freedom in communication. We want to leave that door open so your daughter or son can say, like, I got it, maybe back off a little, mom. Like, OK, I’m gonna text you on Friday though and see how your test went. Or whatever, right? Setting some of those expectations early and allowing it to be pretty malleable, so that you find that new rhythm, you find that new fit.

Maryann: Yeah, a lot of moms I know had that kind of conversation about texting. Like, I expect to text every day. And then after their kid left, they realized, I don’t even want to text him every day. [Laughs]

Emily: Exactly.

Maryann: So it does constantly seem to be evolving. But one thing I want to point out is that when we spoke last month, you said something so interesting to me. You told me that these days, moms can be in so many different life stages when their kids go off to college. They could be in their 40s, 50s, even their 60s when they become empty nesters. And that the stage of life that they’re at really impacts the way they experience their children’s departure. Can you elaborate on that? It’s so interesting.

Emily: Yes, we live in such an interesting era where I have friends sending their kids off to college, and one of my dearest friends, 43 years old, just had her first baby yesterday. No kidding. You know, like all of that generational spread comes with a lot of different expectations. And I think we’re also then set up in very different worlds to be able to travel more or afford more, depending on your age, how long you’ve worked, where your child is going to college and how often you may or may not be able to visit them. And so, a lot of times this can ruffle some feathers in your peer group. And I think what works for one family may be vastly different than what works for your contemporaries, you know? And so, being able to just…not unlike early parenting, you know, where you’re just sort of getting your footing and realizing, I might have a different style than my very dearest friend who’s parenting differently than I am or making different choices, or, you know, my kids stay at home a lot, and their kids are doing all the activities. So then you’re looking at, like, oh, they’re going to an Ivy League school, and my kid wants to take a gap year. So I think we can all learn a lot from everybody, and also continue to be secure in just knowing, again, it kind of comes back to who you are and what you need. And stepping back and not letting their child or your child define who you are as a person, right? And as you look around, you’ll see “successful” kids, quote, unquote, and those who are confused and taking a windy route. I think every one of those kids can come from fabulous homes and loving parents, and we have to kind of be able to be there for each other, because at some point, your child will also make a mistake or need you. But being really gentle with those friendships, and being able to hear one another in the place they’re at, because with some people, depending on where they are in their life, there’s a lot more security or insecurity. They may or may not have that kind of friendship, kind of support, for them as they’re transitioning through this.

Maryann: I really love that you said that, Emily, because I agree with you that we need to drop the judgment on each other. We can be so hard on each other. We could have a whole other episode on what we’re going through simultaneously, while our kids are leaving…We can talk about [how] hormones and all that other stuff [tie in]. There’s so much going on with us. And we do need to be kind to one another and ourselves. On that note, I was looking at your website the other day, and something on it really struck a nerve with me. It says something like, “Prepare your heart” as your kids are getting ready to leave. And that really resonated with me. Because, you know, we can set practical goals and practical expectations, but we also have to prepare emotionally, right? How can we do this? What should we be thinking about in advance?

Emily: I think the key word there is prepare, right? And again, like so many milestones in life, just because you see it on the horizon, we still kind of duck down and avoid it and think, like, I’m not going to deal with that till I absolutely have to. And then we’re somehow ambushed emotionally by this upheaval of confusion, like, oh, how did this graduation day get here now? You know, I always knew it was coming, and somehow it’s still like a blind spot that we want to keep blind because we just don’t want to face it. And so I really think we need to develop a system of talking about grief. I think grief is a scary word in our culture. I think we do avoid it, because it’s like, that’ll just make me more sad. That’ll just make me upset to think about. And instead, if you can begin to familiarize yourself with this process, that it’s coming, and it’s not the end, it’s just another transition like when they turn one, or when they turn 16, or they start to drive…not that it’s like, oh, my gosh, this huge monumental moment, and you think the world will end the day after. And it’s like, no, you’re gonna wake up and they’re gonna be there and you’re gonna talk to them, and you’re gonna be annoyed by them and they’re gonna be annoyed by…The relationship continues, right? So we can’t put all this pressure on this one moment, that it’s going to shift and change things forever. I think the earlier you begin to talk with your child about, what did they want to do in their life, what are they excited about, how was that for you, what are you excited about for them, and getting to see them develop into these grown ups, you know, whole people and individuals…It really then allows for a smoother transition to enjoy them as people and not just pocket them into these little kid memories that we want to hold on to. Like, those are treasures, but we don’t want those to stop us from exploring who they are becoming right in front of our eyes.

Maryann: Right. I love that, and we’re going to talk a little bit more about that later, because that’s such a great part of the conversation. We’re also going to talk about women who experienced this a little bit differently, who may see the upside a little more than other people. But what if you are finding yourself unable to cope? If you’re feeling that grief? You know it’s grief after your kids leave home. Are there some coping mechanisms, like real, tangible things that women can do?

Emily: Yes! One of my favorites that’s so easy that everyone can do it starting today is to set a reminder on your phone twice in the day that pops up as an alarm and says, what do I need? And you’re literally just taking inventory, in the moment, of what you need. And you may need more water, more coffee, a hot bath, a hot meal. Throughout motherhood, we’ve gotten in such a rhythm of asking others what they need, or just being constantly needed and attending to everyone else, that we forget to check in on what I want, let alone need, right? And I think a lot of times, we cover this up with self care, and we just automatically fill our calendars with yoga class or getting coffee or whatever. But if I’m feeling lonely, and it pops up, and I have that need of loneliness, going to a yoga class might not solve that for me, right? It doesn’t. It is great self care, but it doesn’t necessarily…It’s like a square peg in a round hole, right? So I might need to check in and be like, you know what, I really need to just call a friend right now. I need to be reminded that I’m doing this thing called life, OK, even if I feel sad right now. And on the other side, if I’m feeling like I just need to get out, I need an outlet, I need to get walking, OK, then sitting and reading a book is not going to fulfill that need, right? And so we need to be able to just sort of check in, and then dial in, what our action is doing. Is that actually meeting the legitimate needs that we have in that moment?

Maryann: Yeah, you bring up a good point with the filling your life with the busyness. But we can also do that when we have kids too, right? Like, the playdates and school volunteer work. And I was a little bit guilty of that. PTA chair, you know, in the house. But could we possibly be masking something else, like our own innate desires and needs? Is it time to get in touch with all that? Like, a career opportunity that may have been buried, or some other life goal that we have?

Emily: Absolutely. At the end of every day, I like to include my clients into this habit all the time. End with a win. What is something that went well today, something I did right today, something I felt good about? What is the win of the day? And then, what am I looking forward to tomorrow? And it could be the first morning cup of coffee, it could be meeting up with a friend, it could be arbitrary, anything that you’re looking forward to. But if you find a series of days where you don’t have things to look forward to, or you’re not sure if it really is genuinely fulfilling, then I think it’s when more is needed, right? And that’s where empty nests counseling would come in. You know, checking in with a therapist, even a life coach, even your best friend, and just sort of beginning to explore your preferences along with your skills. You may have long lost skills that you haven’t used in a long time in the workforce. But do you enjoy that anymore? Just because you can do it, should you do it? I think, again, it’s a great time in life to take inventory. What do I like to do, and what am I good at? And trying to find, as much as possible, the crossroads of those two things.

Maryann: I read somewhere that you should not make big life decisions right after your kids leave. Is there any validity to that?

Emily: Yeah, I always tell people…Sometimes life throws this at you regardless, but try to limit your life to one major transition per year, or at least split it up a little bit. Sometimes these things align and we just need to handle them as they come. But yeah, I think definitely, again, this is why you want to prepare your heart early and start taking inventory, so that when you know you’re ready to pull the trigger and make a change, you’ve already done that work. You’re not just having emotional whiplash and reacting to something and trying to fill that void. We don’t want you to just dump a whole bunch of new activities in your life, when you haven’t even thought about whether they’re going to benefit you or not.

Maryann: What about turning their room into a gym or office? Is it too soon for that?

Emily: Hey, you know, no, if you’re ready for that and you have somewhere to put it now. I would say pump the brakes on discarding any of their things.

Maryann: [Laughs] Right, right. Boxes, you need boxes.

Emily: You know, sometimes it’s like, I just need to be rid of this! Yes, yes. So, you know, at least get some storage set up. If you gotta use their space, that’s absolutely fine. But also, I think that’s a conversation, because this is a relationship. And sometimes it is hurtful to walk by that room and see it being the same, you know, but it is their room and it was their room. And I feel like being able to give them still some ownership that they can come back and they always have a place in your family. It’s less about the room. It’s more about the room in your heart that is always available to them.

Maryann: Well, this has been a point of contention with my family, because our daughter went to Berkeley, which is just over the bridge. And so she’s home a lot. And she has an apartment there. So she kindly—she did this, not me—offered her room to her brother, who had a very tiny room compared to her. So he moved into her room, and now she didn’t want the little room. She’s like, make it back into your office, mom. So I’m doing that. But I’m standing there, and I’m either looking at it with just such happiness that I have an office, or I’m crying. [Laughs] It’s one or the other. But I did put her stuff into boxes in another closet, and now she’s sad. She’s like, why did I let you do that? But we did have that conversation with her, like, this is always going to be your house, no matter where you’re staying. It’s always yours, you know?

Emily: Yes, absolutely. Yes.

Maryann: Yeah. One thing I did want to ask you, Emily, is, you know, for some reason, some women don’t feel as sad as others do when their kids leave home. Some are even rebranding the term empty nester as “free bird,” as you and I talked about, because it makes it feel like it’s this liberating time rife with opportunity. Is it? Is it becoming trendy to see it that way? And why do you think more women are seeing it that way?

Emily: Yeah, I mean, I love that they’re rebranding that. I think it has a negative connotation, even though our business is named Empty Nest Counseling, because we are all familiar with that term. And part of our goal is to kind of turn you into free birds. It’s to be able to kind of instill that empowerment. And I think the real turning point is that your identity is not contingent upon your children at all. It never was. You were a whole person before your children, you’re a whole person as a mother, you’re a whole person as they launch and grow, you know? And so it’s really about maintaining that. Now, we want to be careful that your freedom isn’t founded upon denial, that you’re not just avoiding the emotional cost. You have done a fabulous job raising this child. You should take pride in that. Also, any change comes with loss, right? So there is a gain, and that’s part of what we want to help you move towards. It’s, OK, this feels like loss, and it’s not just loss, it’s also gain. But if you’re feeling all gain, we also want you to take a hot second and acknowledge the loss. Again, grief is not bad, it’s not a problem to be solved. It’s a process to walk through. And so familiarize yourself with, hey, there are some twangs of pain here that I’m feeling and experiencing once in a while. That’s not a bad thing. It’s nothing to run from. Also, there’s a huge gain in freedom, in new activities, identities, things that now my capacity has room for because it isn’t necessarily dictated by the schedule and needs of my children.

Maryann: And let’s talk about some more of those gains. Like, what are your clients saying that they are looking forward to, if anything, during this time? Or what have they managed to kind of get back or discover about themselves or their relationships?

Emily: Absolutely. It’s no surprise that a lot of marriage identity is examined in this phase. I think too many marriages kind of hit the pause button and say, you know, we’ll do that after the kids are gone. We’ll pick up on that, learn to communicate and solve that problem later. Really, then, it’s exposed as they’re left alone with one another. If there were some cracks in the foundation of the relationship, it’s feeling a lot more insecure when there isn’t a distraction of children in the home. So that is a really common thing to be able to then work on. And I think, you know, the sooner the better. You don’t have to wait for the problems to decide for you. But then also, there’s so much beauty found in that newfound friendship, because you have energy, you have time for one another. If you’re a single parent, same thing, like you still have a new found capacity to be able to re-engage with your social life and the needs that you have for relationships. And so I think that will only serve your children well as adults, if you have other adult relationships, that you’re not dependent upon your children to seek friendship from them, that you are in a role as their parent forever. And you deserve your own friends, and you deserve your own interests, and you deserve your own partnerships, whether it’s in business or in love. And so being able to just kind of look inward and be able to kind of redefine for yourself, what is important to me? And now I have the time and energy and capacity to be able to address those needs freely.

Maryann: Right. My husband and I were just saying that it’s kind of ironic that people say when you have babies at home, intimacy suffers. Because I said, no, babies you can put to sleep at eight o’clock. But teenagers, they’re roaming the house all night. They’re like bad roommates. [Laugh]

Emily: Exactly. Exactly.

Maryann: And I almost wonder if it’s nature’s way, you know, of just getting so angry, like not angry, but just so frustrated that OK, we’re kind of relieved when they move out.

Emily: Yeah. I need some space and time, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Maryann: But I also think, you know, it could be hard to deal with empty nest if you’re afraid, like you mentioned earlier, that your kids aren’t going to do well on their own. Do you think that parents are more prone to empty nest depression if they were, dare I say it, helicopter parents or uber-involved?

Emily: Yes, it is absolutely true. Again, we’re overcompensating for something that we need, and so that is a legitimate need that is being met by something our child is either performing or achieving or bringing home to us, and so that’s where it gets to be potentially destructive. And we all really want to stay on the side of being constructive, that we’re there to help, assist, support, you know, with our children. We’re not there to supervise and secure a place where they always need us in every realm, you know? We’re available, but we’re not just supervising constantly, right? And so I think it begins kind of in the adolescent years, where you begin to posture yourself as not always needed, and being able to see some of that independence thrive. And I think the best way to transition into launching them is to encourage that independence and allow for them to fall and come back and need you in those ways. And you learn, and they fly further and harder and stronger, you know, and then come back and need you. And so I think there’s a real misconception that once I let go, my child no longer needs me. And that’s the grief that we feel. But that’s not true. So it’s really important to redefine being needed in a different way. It isn’t going to be the constant hand holding. And I then think we deserve to take pride in the reward of seeing them thrive. I once had a professor in grad school tell me parenting is the only job that if you do it right, you get fired at the end. [Laughs]

Maryann: So true, it is.

Emily: Right? And so we need that perspective pretty early on to be able to know like, OK, it’s actually a really good thing that they didn’t call me right away, it’s actually a good thing that they didn’t need me so much. We’re hearing and seeing and reaping the benefits of the hard work we’ve poured into them to be able to model like, you’ve got this, you can do this. And I feel like that can be incredibly rewarding. That is one of the gains we don’t necessarily anticipate, the excitement we should feel when our child is independent and thriving. So good.

Maryann: What’s that adage that kids don’t belong to you, they just come through you? Whatever that is, I love that. And I agree with you. And, you know, college in general is coming under a lot of salt lately because it’s gotten so expensive, and people are starting to question, like, is this even worth it for my kids? And are they going to even do any better having gone to a private school or whatever? But I always say that I think college is not even like…The academics aside, it’s for growing up, right? Whether your kids go to college or they just move out and do something else, get a job, get an apartment, it’s such an opportunity for them to really forge their own path like you said, and make their own mistakes. Because could you imagine if we never made mistakes when we were younger?

Emily: I mean, oh my gosh, let’s just say we’re all glad social media didn’t exist back then, right?

Maryann: 100%, yeah. So, Emily, if we are having trouble letting go, can this have a negative effect on our kids’ development along those lines? I would imagine it would cause guilt in our kids if they felt like their absence was making us crazy or sad.

Emily: Right, right. That’s where, again, we are the parent, and so we should never have our emotions contingent upon our child’s behavior. So just like when you have a toddler throwing a tantrum, if you freaked out and were just like, just take your shoes off, like, it didn’t help the situation, right?

Maryann: It does not work.

Emily: No, they’re irrational, right? Well, we’re still kind of dealing with irrational beings once in a while here. So you know, if they are scared or homesick or not feeling freedom to be able to just be fully excited about it, we need to meet them where they are. We need to still remain to be the calm presence. Now, this doesn’t mean you can’t be sad or aren’t going to be sad, but it means don’t turn to your child to be your emotional support. OK? So that is why it’s so critical to have a best friend, a counselor, a spouse, a partner, you know, someone that you are addressing these issues with and being able to be vulnerable and exposed with and saying, this is really hard for me. But not making it contingent upon, hey, I’m gonna cry all day if you don’t call me. You know? It’s like, my gosh, what horrible torture.

Maryann: That’d be awful.

Emily: Terrible, yeah. And we don’t want that kind of relationship. We want to be able to then hang up the phone, and if we need to have a good cry, we’ve got a friend for that, right? That’s OK. I’m not saying that won’t happen. And you don’t need to hide your emotions, but you need to be able to be the supportive, calm presence that is there. Steadfast, available. So if you’re doing your own work, you don’t need your child to have to be that outlet for you. You’re already supported behind the scenes, able to be strong and steadfast for them, to be able to encourage them in whatever they’re doing.

Maryann: Yeah, and you mentioned this earlier, but I agree that one of the greatest aspects to this is that we’re forging a new kind of relationship with our kids, one with them as a young adult. And I found that when my daughter comes home, it’s a different experience with her. She washes dishes, and she asked me how my week was or my month was, and you can see it maturing into a different kind of relationship. Is this something you focus on with your clients?

Emily: Yes, absolutely. You know, it’s a two way street, right? Some parents want to be needed more, some kids need their parents too much. You know, sometimes we have parents that we work on really kind of establishing boundaries that you can say, hey, I’ve got a book club tonight, honey, I’m not gonna be able to answer your call. And a lot of moms have a hard time, like, you can say no to your child? It’s like, absolutely. You have a life. They need to see that and know that they also need their own support group that doesn’t just consist of you alone, right? So I think, again, building that early on, being able to say I am one pillar in your life, I am not the pillar, like, please do not stand alone on me, right? Please have good friends, have other people, your dad is here, your aunt is here, you know, there’s other people. Because that should actually bring you more security as a mother, to be able to know, like, I don’t have to have all the answers, but I do have a community here that my child can turn to. I have set them up for success. And to know that they can turn and ask for help as needed and that I am not the sole provider of 100% of that help.

Maryann: And, you know, I think we would be remiss if we didn’t mention the fact that some women are having the opposite problem. They wish they were contending with an empty nest. We talked about this a bit. You know, the cost of living and cost of education. Many more kids—correct me if I’m wrong—are moving back home, or they’re having trouble launching, right? And that can put a strain on the parent child relationship. Are any clients coming to you for that reason? And what would you advise?

Emily: Yes, it’s so common. I think it’s more common than it’s ever been in a long time. Especially COVID re-ignited that, because a lot of college kids had to come home, and we saw a lot of that ripple effect of that initial elation and joy of the parents, like, oh my gosh, they’re back, you know? And then everybody was in lockdown together and it was too much. It was also among spouses who found themselves working from home, and just on top of each other inside this house. So I think we are seeing, though, a resurgence of launching and then re-launching, right? Because it’s like, they’ll go to college, but they may not necessarily stay at college, they may not necessarily graduate, they may not necessarily have a job set up afterwards. So there’s oftentimes a period of coming back home, then applying for jobs, and kind of then re-launching. And it’s a really kind of sweet time, because everyone sort of knows and hopes that it’s temporary. But I do think it is good for parents to kind of re-initiate ground rules of what is happening now and how you’re contributing to the home. And I think treating them like a grown up and not like the teen that you first launched into the world is appropriate. Because again, it would be a very harsh reality to go revert back into, I do all the things and all the laundry and everything for you at home, and then now you’re launching into the “real” world, quote, unquote, not just back into college life where there’s a cafeteria. There’s bills, and there’s rent, and there’s utilities and things like that. So I would really sit down with your child and really kind of talk through expectations and time, and how it will change. And you can do it like every six months. We’re going to revisit this. How many jobs are you applying for, and how do we help you achieve that, and, you know, just setting their own expectations. Because some might move back home and think mom and dad are gonna take care of everything. Others might move back home and be like, I really hate this, I want to be on my own, but I can’t do it yet. So be honest about those expectations, when you are looking ahead to be able to set yourself up for success. But those are definitely some new and different boundaries that are different than when they live away from you and different than when they’re going to really start their own life and not intend on coming back ever.

Maryann: Right. Is it my imagination that it feels like more kids are switching schools and moving around a lot more than they did when we were younger?

Emily: Yeah, we do see that a lot. It’s interesting, because I think it’s also just the evolution of availability. It used to be the expectation was like, choose your major, go four years, commit. And that’s it. And I don’t think the generation above us gave us many options to change that. And we’ve slowly kind of pushed that boundary and thought, well, you know, like, I don’t think I’m gonna go right on to grad school. I think I’m gonna get a job and see if I even need that degree, you know? And then maybe go back to school. And we’re seeing in grad schools more and more older students, you know, in their second careers. I think it used to be much more common to choose a career path and stay on it forever. Now, it’s very common for 30 year olds to have already had two careers and be able to change. Or again, we’re looking at empty nesters now changing careers, again. Like, that worked for the growing up years, but now, I want something that’s more fulfilling, not just to make money. And so I think that’s relevant. I think your child needs to explore those possibilities and not just the dollar signs, even though that is important. But again, it’s sort of that crossroads of like, where is my passion? Where are my skills? What do I care about? And then the realities that we bring in as parents to be able to say, like, and how are you going to pay the bills with that? It’s both.

Maryann: Right. I do agree. I feel like more kids are taking chances, moving around, exploring more in the early years than we got a chance to do. So maybe that will mean fewer midlife crises or something with them, hopefully. [Laughs]

Emily: [Laughs] Yeah, that’d be great. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Maryann: Well, Emily, this has been so helpful. Do you have any more tips or suggestions for parents entering this phase of life, or who are in it right now?

Emily: Yeah, I just want to encourage everyone that you’re not alone, you know, and there’s no right way to do this. I feel like so many times, we see it on the horizon. And like I said earlier, we just sort of keep it there until we’re forced to face it. And it really isn’t anything to fear. I feel like the more you can familiarize yourself with it and begin the exploration process of who I might be later… And again, that’s not rigid either. You will continue to mature, grow, need different things. Your relationships will evolve, you know, and being able to be conversational about it now is healthy not only for yourself, but for your friends, your family, and especially your children. You’re modeling how to do this in their own future. And so again, you don’t want them to be holding all the power on how you should be feeling. You want to be able to model for them the empowerment that you hope they achieve.

Maryann: Well said, I love that. Emily, tell our listeners where they can find you online.

Emily: Yes, if you go to emptynestcounseling.com, you can look at all that we offer. And that includes, if you click on our online course, we have a free becoming empty nesters webinar that you’re able to sign up for at any time. It is free and available to anyone anywhere. And we are in Tennessee, and so if you are in Tennessee, we can help you. We also offer teletherapy in Florida as well. And if we have any local resources, we’re happy to hold your hand and connect you to something local as well. So reach out. Don’t hesitate. We’re here for you.

Maryann: Sounds great. Thank you so, so much.